The story of AAR Cuda BS23J0B291044 "Buyer Beware"

[James426]

It's OK 70Chall440, people like 1wildRT don't bother me.  He is just trying to protect his own interest in his own "show poodles" as he calls them.

They make new bodies for Jeeps and have been doing it for years. Unbolt your rusty jeep, put the new body on the frame, move the VIN's and away you go.  They make replacement tubs for XKE Jags, MG's, Austin minis and dozens of other cars. There are businesses that specialize in building 1957 Chevies from nothing more than the cowl top and VIN tag and these cars are listed, advertised, win car shows with full photo journals of the entire build process and nobody bats an eye because people WANT the cars built just like that. Here is a link to one place that does the 57's. Check out the pics with the cars built around nothing but the upper cowl. And people stand in line for these cars and they bring as much if not more than many "real" cars.   

http://www.camaromuscle.com/indexNEW%20BODIES.html

At two of the major televised auctions so far this year, FOUR cars passed through that were disclosed as "rebodies". They were listed, marketed, sold and transferred to new owners with full disclosure of their "rebody" status. The cars brought prices somewhere between a well built clone and a similar condition original car which is about where they should be price wise. For years people took run of the mill Ferraris and "rebodied" them with all new bodies using the VIN from the chassis and engine donors. These cars still bring hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The market for 1932 Fords has embraced the same aspects. There are brand new builds using steel bodies and new frames that builders seek out original 1932 Ford titles and use them to register them. Even though EVERYBODY knows it is a brand new build, the one with the 1932 Ford title brings considerably more than one with a "constructed 2016" title. They can enter shows differently, obtain cheaper insurance, and obtain classic license plates. The fact is that there are many people that would want to own, drive and enjoy a "rebodied" car that is somewhere in between a clone and an original. Now there is at least one state where it is a perfectly legal practice done with the blessing of the State legislators.     

[1 Wild R/T]

It's OK 70Chall440, people like 1wildRT don't bother me.  He is just trying to protect his own interest in his own "show poodles" as he calls them.

They make new bodies for Jeeps and have been doing it for years. Unbolt your rusty jeep, put the new body on the frame, move the VIN's and away you go.  They make replacement tubs for XKE Jags, MG's, Austin minis and dozens of other cars. There are businesses that specialize in building 1957 Chevies from nothing more than the cowl top and VIN tag and these cars are listed, advertised, win car shows with full photo journals of the entire build process and nobody bats an eye because people WANT the cars built just like that. Here is a link to one place that does the 57's. Check out the pics with the cars built around nothing but the upper cowl. And people stand in line for these cars and they bring as much if not more than many "real" cars.   

http://www.camaromuscle.com/indexNEW%20BODIES.html


At two of the major televised auctions so far this year, FOUR cars passed through that were disclosed as "rebodies". They were listed, marketed, sold and transferred to new owners with full disclosure of their "rebody" status. The cars brought prices somewhere between a well built clone and a similar condition original car which is about where they should be price wise. For years people took run of the mill Ferraris and "rebodied" them with all new bodies using the VIN from the chassis and engine donors. These cars still bring hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The market for 1932 Fords has embraced the same aspects. There are brand new builds using steel bodies and new frames that builders seek out original 1932 Ford titles and use them to register them. Even though EVERYBODY knows it is a brand new build, the one with the 1932 Ford title brings considerably more than one with a "constructed 2016" title. They can enter shows differently, obtain cheaper insurance, and obtain classic license plates. The fact is that there are many people that would want to own, drive and enjoy a "rebodied" car that is somewhere in between a clone and an original. Now there is at least one state where it is a perfectly legal practice done with the blessing of the State legislators.   

Disclose the VIN & I'll have no problem with it... At that point you've made it an honest Rebody not the deception  That your currently trying to be a accomplice to.... 

[James426]

Are you also demanding that Classic Recreations disclose all of their VIN's to you? Of the builder of the 57 Chevies?  Do you mind if someone demands that you post all of your VIN's from your show poodles? Do you demand that anyone you take issue with for whatever reason disclose their VIN's to you?  A little demanding of you don't you think?   

[1 Wild R/T]

I'm not selling a rebody kit...  Anyone is welcome to view my VIN number, I've never hidden it & certainly if I were selling the car the VIN would be available for all to see.... 


You obviously fail to understand the joke that the "show poodle" comment is...  I drive my cars... If I didn't I wouldn't own them.... 

[1 Wild R/T]

Hey how about posting a picture of the car the tags actually came from instead of Jim's photo that you grabbed off the internet.....   Since the car Jim posted doesn't have a vinyl top & yours is coded for a vinyl top...   If you'd like I can ask Jim to post confirming he took the photo.....

[70chall440]

As I figured, this would be a hot button and emotional topic. My personal view is a bit varied and I am sure controversial to some, but I personally feel that so long as you are not putting another car on the road (as in you are taking 2 to build one) I am not overly concerned. Now, I will say that IMO if you are taking a 318 car and using everything from say a TA or AAR (and I mean everything possible and what the car had when it was built); again I am not overly concerned about. Having said all of that, it comes back to disclosure; if you did what I describe and then display, market, show it with that story and disclosure, I have zero issues. If however you did that and then tried to bury the fact and present the car as having been born that way to a buyer; I feel that is fraud. Point here (for me) is that I would rather see a rebodied TA, AAR, 6 pack car, hemi, etc brought back to life than not. If the rebodied car brings more money than an original and all the cards are on the table, so be it.

There are many instances and examples of rebodied cars throughout history, in fact there was a time when it was common place. I don't think this really became an issue until the collectors and investors got involved and then it was more about value than the cars. There seems to be this huge issue that a rebodied car will dilute or harm the value of others that were born that way. Given the nature of Mopars, there is also a big concern about adding options during the rebuild that may not have been present in the original thus seemingly artificially increasing its value. To this issue I would say the car should be worth what someone is willing to pay. If the seller doesn't disclose the car is a rebody or the buyer doesn't know any different or do his/her research, then problems will occur.

[James426]

In the 70's I worked at a highline restoration shop where this Cadillac V-16 Town Brougham (see link) was "recreated" to replicate the original New York auto show car that was lost to history. It was a 12 year process and when completed it was indistinguishable from the original using a more common rounded roof town car as the basis. A few years after its completion, I was a Concourse De Elegance where it was being shown as the actual original one-off NY show car. That was wrong. This car was pretending to be the only one of its kind and a very historical and valuable car. I informed a few people that mattered of the facts surrounding the car, and now it is always listed as what it is with amazing detail of where it came from and who did the conversion. Even as a "fake" is still recently sold for a quarter of a million dollars. It now has it's place in the collector car World for what it is, a beautiful and magnificent car still wearing its 40 year old restoration that our shop did. 

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23234/lot/43/

The point being that original cars have their place, clones have their place, and yes, even rebodies have their place. Just the fact that major auction houses now allow them to cross the block should tell you the direction this is going. The point of title laws was to prevent people from using the paperwork from one car to steal another car and sell it like on the orange Challenger from the original Gone in 60 Seconds. These laws were never meant to keep one car from growing factory options nor did they contemplate in the future someone would consider restoring a assembly line production vehicle that needed almost every single part replaced. You will see more cars being rebodied and more cars being built from scratch and using original paperwork to put them on the road because there are way more people wanting them and not enough cars to go around. The Oklahoma law brings a little bit of sanity back to the hobby.

[1 Wild R/T]

it was indistinguishable from the original using a more common rounded roof town car as the basis. A few years after its completion, I was a Concourse De Elegance where it was being shown as the actual original one-off NY show car. That was wrong. This car was pretending to be the only one of its kind and a very historical and valuable car.

And this is exactly why the VIN should be disclosed......

[James426]

But point in fact is that you are presupposing that both an illegal act as well as an unethical act WILL take place at some point in time in the future when at this point there is simply an assortment of parts. You are casting aspersion and criminal accusations upon myself and whomever is the benefactor of these parts in the future based on what you assume will happen to them.  You have in your possession a high performance muscle car. So should I then assume that you will break the law by speeding, drive recklessly and kill someone and therefore attempt to deny you the right to drive?       

There was a man with a rusty AAR Cuda that he had owned for several years. He did a full rotisserie restoration and replaced all of the rusted sheetmetal, however, his car was listed on a registry as a "rebody" and was not aware of this until he was selling his finished car on ebay. He had photo documentation of the total Restoration and it was not a rebody, but the internet branded his car as one and seriously hurt the value of his car. Again, the internet police called a crime not only before one had taken place, but they were wrong.     

[1 Wild R/T]

But point in fact is that you are presupposing that both an illegal act as well as an unethical act WILL take place at some point in time in the future when at this point there is simply an assortment of parts. You are casting aspersion and criminal accusations upon myself and whomever is the benefactor of these parts in the future based on what you assume will happen to them.  You have in your possession a high performance muscle car. So should I then assume that you will break the law by speeding, drive recklessly and kill someone and therefore attempt to deny you the right to drive?     

FWIW the unethical act is clearly already taking place... And depending on the interpretation of law selling of your rebody kit an illegal act is also taking place.... 

[ec_co]

i posted this in the other thread, absolutely relevant.

it's a Federal thing http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?tag=rebody

comes down to this one for me.

Many laws have been enacted to protect the integrity of the VIN.  Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. � 511, the alteration of a VIN, could be a federal criminal offense.  Further, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. � 2321 whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, could be fined or imprisoned for up to ten years.