Author Topic: Hard starting  (Read 4466 times)

Offline 734406pk

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Re: Hard starting
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2016 - 08:25:26 PM »
I had the same issue on a bone stock 360 Crate motor with Small 600 CFM Eddy carb.  Small tube headers.  As soon as I replaced that with EFI, the problem magically went away. I thought I was losing crank Voltage too and that was causing issues with the Ignition control.    I now believe the fuel was boiling out.  The EFI always shoots some amount of fuel at start up.  a warm or hot start gets different amounts of "prime" fuel.  it also has "crank" fuel  My EFI also controls spark so it retards it back to 10* at crank.

John

 :iagree: No problem with EFI, that's what the fuel today is made for, a closed high pressure systems. The fuel boiling point is very low in comparison to what our engines were designed to run on back in the day. So what to do? We must lower the fuel temp as much as possible to keep it from boiling off... Cool-Carb insulator and block the cross over would be the first step IMO.
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive




Offline Strawdawg

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Re: Hard starting
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2016 - 03:26:32 PM »
:iagree: No problem with EFI, that's what the fuel today is made for, a closed high pressure systems. The fuel boiling point is very low in comparison to what our engines were designed to run on back in the day. So what to do? We must lower the fuel temp as much as possible to keep it from boiling off... Cool-Carb insulator and block the cross over would be the first step IMO.

Like he said.

This is a simple problem and is quite common.

There are two basic fuel-heat problems.

First we have vapor lock.  This was common in the old days as well as now.  At one time, many cars had a vapor return line on the filter that routed the vapor that occurred back to the fuel tank.   Fuel vapor does not pump very well...and if it did, it would not do much to fill the bowl with fuel.  The problem is exacerbated by the use of mechanical fuel pumps that are not very good at sucking liquids into the pump and pump nothing if it has vaporized.  Obviously, I think, engine compartment heat causes the fuel to vaporize in the fuel line.  Today's formulation does not anticipate this problem as it is formulated  anticipating a 43 psi fuel pressure being pushed by an electric pump submersed in fuel in the tank.  Fuel under pressure does not vaporize very easily and it is continuously being recirculated back to the tank by the regulator so heat cannot build up in it to any great extent while it is running.  When the key is turned back on, the fuel immediately recirculates and any vapor that may occur is pushed thru the canister.

On our older cars, an electrical pusher pump at the rear of the car helps a lot even at lower pressure but steel lines still absorb a lot heat and as has been mentioned in this thread, putting insulation on the line really helps-particularly if the engine has headers on it.  No sense in having hot fuel going into the carb when it is running-just gives it a head start on boiling in the bowls.

Using coated headers also really cuts down on the under hood temps.

The apparent problem in this particular case seems to be the fuel boiling out of the bowl when the car is parked.  Again we have today's forumlation of fuel making it worse.   Often, it may appear that the engine is flooded, but generally, the fuel has boiled out of the bowl via the vent tube as well as out of the intake and heads.

To reduce this from happening, we have to reduce the amount of underhood heat that rises up around the carb as well as the heat transferred from the engine to the carb when it sits.  As mentioned, coated headers make a big difference in lowering the ambient temp around the top of the engine.

The other two items have already been mentioned.  Block the exhaust heat that is piped into the intake to improve cold weather start up drivability and use an insulator under the carb base and/or a good insulator heat shield that reflects/blocks heat from rising up to the carb.

Putting an ice bucket in the fuel line may help a strip car but it's no solution for a car that is going to be driven further than a quarter mile.

If you live in an area where you think 90 degs is a hot day and you have coated headers and blocked exhaust heat, you may never have this problem so that has a bearing on the subject.

Offline cudabob496

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Re: Hard starting
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2016 - 06:13:37 PM »
and a well vented hood works wonders.

Seems an A/C system that cools the fuel would be good.
Some type of little freon heat exchanger that the fuel could pass through.

and maybe some kinda of relfective paint on the bowls too.

Don't forget a good phenolic carb spacer.

an insulated ice bucket could give you an hour of safe cruising. Might be the cheapest fix. Its not
like there is a high amount of fuel flowing through the coiled lines in the bucket.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016 - 06:26:22 PM by cudabob496 »
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline Gus cuda

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Re: Hard starting
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2016 - 10:23:23 AM »
My cuda had some of these same hard starting issues after parked for an hour or so. Turns out my car did not like the lead additive I was putting in the gas. Stopped using it and it's never happened again. You be the judge :dunno:

Offline YellowThumper

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Re: Hard starting
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2016 - 12:54:09 PM »
Had a similar issue on mine. Oddly enough it was the ignition module. Something it would not let it "kick" when it was hot. Cold it would fire right up. Warm had to crank and crank and crank. Once started it ran good.

Mike
Removing the warning labels one at a time.
Nature will take care of the rest.

Offline 734406pk

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Re: Hard starting
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2016 - 06:27:29 PM »
Like he said.

This is a simple problem and is quite common.

There are two basic fuel-heat problems.

First we have vapor lock.  This was common in the old days as well as now.  At one time, many cars had a vapor return line on the filter that routed the vapor that occurred back to the fuel tank.   Fuel vapor does not pump very well...and if it did, it would not do much to fill the bowl with fuel.  The problem is exacerbated by the use of mechanical fuel pumps that are not very good at sucking liquids into the pump and pump nothing if it has vaporized.  Obviously, I think, engine compartment heat causes the fuel to vaporize in the fuel line.  Today's formulation does not anticipate this problem as it is formulated  anticipating a 43 psi fuel pressure being pushed by an electric pump submersed in fuel in the tank.  Fuel under pressure does not vaporize very easily and it is continuously being recirculated back to the tank by the regulator so heat cannot build up in it to any great extent while it is running.  When the key is turned back on, the fuel immediately recirculates and any vapor that may occur is pushed thru the canister.

On our older cars, an electrical pusher pump at the rear of the car helps a lot even at lower pressure but steel lines still absorb a lot heat and as has been mentioned in this thread, putting insulation on the line really helps-particularly if the engine has headers on it.  No sense in having hot fuel going into the carb when it is running-just gives it a head start on boiling in the bowls.

Using coated headers also really cuts down on the under hood temps.

The apparent problem in this particular case seems to be the fuel boiling out of the bowl when the car is parked.  Again we have today's forumlation of fuel making it worse.   Often, it may appear that the engine is flooded, but generally, the fuel has boiled out of the bowl via the vent tube as well as out of the intake and heads.

To reduce this from happening, we have to reduce the amount of underhood heat that rises up around the carb as well as the heat transferred from the engine to the carb when it sits.  As mentioned, coated headers make a big difference in lowering the ambient temp around the top of the engine.

The other two items have already been mentioned.  Block the exhaust heat that is piped into the intake to improve cold weather start up drivability and use an insulator under the carb base and/or a good insulator heat shield that reflects/blocks heat from rising up to the carb.

Putting an ice bucket in the fuel line may help a strip car but it's no solution for a car that is going to be driven further than a quarter mile.

If you live in an area where you think 90 degs is a hot day and you have coated headers and blocked exhaust heat, you may never have this problem so that has a bearing on the subject.

 :iagree: Once again, you have nailed it!
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline hooD

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Re: Hard starting
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2016 - 11:31:32 PM »
I use to have the hard restarting issues also after shutting it down for 10 minutes or more.  My fuel floats were too high causing fuel to flood my carb.  Reason being was the needle valve had some debri causing the fuel to keep pouring in.   A couple short bursts of compressed air into the carb fuel line did the trick.   Maybe heat is not your problem as much as it could be something else.
-Larry
member since AUG 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvrWiLgDm7Y

southeastern michigan usa
             
 
            
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original owner
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Offline cudabob496

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Re: Hard starting
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2016 - 02:17:54 AM »
I use to have the hard restarting issues also after shutting it down for 10 minutes or more.  My fuel floats were too high causing fuel to flood my carb.  Reason being was the needle valve had some debri causing the fuel to keep pouring in.   A couple short bursts of compressed air into the carb fuel line did the trick.   Maybe heat is not your problem as much as it could be something else.

so an easy fix might be to lower the float levels
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline cudabob496

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Re: Hard starting
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2016 - 04:54:16 PM »
ramming cold air keeps carb cooler

also, you can take about a 16 inch by 5 inch, or so, piece of heavy gauge sheet metal
and mount it so that it shields your headers or exhaust manifold. I also removed the leather
like flaps shielding the wheel wells, so the engine compartment can vent better.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline YO7_A66

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Re: Hard starting
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2016 - 10:17:53 PM »
Rattlesnake:
What temp thermostat?
E10 fuel?
What octane?

Offline cudabob496

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Re: Hard starting
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2016 - 11:18:30 PM »
Had a similar issue on mine. Oddly enough it was the ignition module. Something it would not let it "kick" when it was hot. Cold it would fire right up. Warm had to crank and crank and crank. Once started it ran good.

Mike

my orange box was too close to headers, and would shut car down when it got hot
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000