Author Topic: New K-Frame suspension system, Red Top Speed Shop, MuscleCar TV show  (Read 9598 times)

Offline falcon50flier

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Re: New K-Frame suspension system, Red Top Speed Shop, MuscleCar TV show
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2006 - 10:52:08 AM »
Not to flame RedTop, the hobby needs as many committed vendors as is commercially possible. The bow-tie and blue oval crowd shouldn't have all the support.

I do want to throw down my  :2cents:

1) To get the straight story on the AlterKtion look no further than the excellent website Bill Reilly maintains, in particular if you are considering a replacement K frame system read: http://www.reillymotorsports.com/instructions/installation_manual.pdf

2) "along the lines of race car technology" - I don't know what this is supposed to mean vis-a-vis AlterKtion, but the AlterK is racer designed, and race-proven from the get-go. Bump steer, roll center, and caster are vastly improved over stock.

3) rack and pinion too low? - if any component of a rack and pinion setup, AlterKtion or not, is in harms way of a ground strike, its also going to tear the K frame and oil pan off the car too, there are bigger problems indeed.

4) experience in general - there are 100s of AlterKtions sold, starting with the A body product, and on to B body and E body variants, this system has been continuously improved, and proved on drag strip and road course setups.
70 Challenger convertible
518 cid Hemi, TF727, 3.73 Dana 60




Offline redtopspeedshop

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    • Red Top Speed Shop
Re: New K-Frame suspension system, Red Top Speed Shop, MuscleCar TV show
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2006 - 08:14:49 PM »
Not to flame RedTop, the hobby needs as many committed vendors as is commercially possible. The bow-tie and blue oval crowd shouldn't have all the support.

I do want to throw down my  :2cents:

1) To get the straight story on the AlterKtion look no further than the excellent website Bill Reilly maintains, in particular if you are considering a replacement K frame system read: http://www.reillymotorsports.com/instructions/installation_manual.pdf

2) "along the lines of race car technology" - I don't know what this is supposed to mean vis-a-vis AlterKtion, but the AlterK is racer designed, and race-proven from the get-go. Bump steer, roll center, and caster are vastly improved over stock.

3) rack and pinion too low? - if any component of a rack and pinion setup, AlterKtion or not, is in harms way of a ground strike, its also going to tear the K frame and oil pan off the car too, there are bigger problems indeed.

4) experience in general - there are 100s of AlterKtions sold, starting with the A body product, and on to B body and E body variants, this system has been continuously improved, and proved on drag strip and road course setups.


No flames!
    First of all I want it to be clear that I have said nothing one way or the other about any of the other products that are available. I can really only speak to my own products. I'm sure that the AlterKtion is a great product. My product, however, is a diferrent product altogether. It is no secret that the OEM suspension on any Mopar is marginal at best. After we digitized the complete OEM front end with our FARO arm and ran the points through the suspension geometry program we use for our race cars, it was obvious that any reasonable geometry would be an improvement. When I talk of "race technology", I'm not talking about some "black magic". I'm talking about a combination of good geometry, adjustability, and big reductions in componenet deflection (stronger control arms, stiffer bushings, etc.), all of which will add up to better performance. Of course, this raises another issue. How do you define performance? If you define better performance as a better ride (like a Cadillac), then our stuff is not for you. If you define better performance as a lower E.T. through the slalom or more G's on a skid pad, then you should consider our product. We are just getting started in this whole market and I am sure that we will have our fair share of growing pains but I do want to deliver the best possible product we can produce right out of the box. We have alot of experience making big cars go around corners quickly. I have alot of respect for anyone who is in production and selling product. It takes a huge amount of effort to produce a sellable product that you, the manufacturer, will have confidence in. Over time our product line will grow and improve, A-bodies included. I have been a Mopar man my whole life and I am finally in a position in life where I can focus my experience, resources, and energy in a direction that will benifit my fellow Mopar fans. Finally, let me try to address your other points. In your point #2, I think you meant camber instead of caster. Caster is more of a static setting and although it changes a little through wheel travel depending on control arm pivot locations, it doesn't have the same effect on handling while in a corner as camber does. Your goal with any type of camber gain is to keep the tire flat on the ground. Ultimately it is the tires which determine how well your car will go around a corner. It is the job of the suspension, shocks, springs, and sway bars to manage the tire as well as possible. In your point #3, I was speaking of rack and pinion installations I have seen in general, not specifically of the Alterktion. I have seen plenty of rack installs that were so low that the rack could be damaged by hitting the ground because it was absolutely the lowest thing on the car. There is also the issue of bump steer adjustment with a rack. Personally, I don't like shimming the outside tie rod ends to adjust bump steer. I have seen some dangerously tall shim stacks and/or spacers on the steering arms of some really nice cars. I prefer to move the drag link up or down to make my bump adjustments. To do the same thing with a rack system the rack itself has to be remounted higher or lower to adjust the bump steer. Again, bump steer adjustment is a judgement call. How precise do you think you need to be? For example, if you change outside tie rod ends and they happen to be taller for some reason, then technically, a bump steer adjustment is in order if you want to get back exactly to where you were with the previous tie rod ends. Is that level of detail absolutely necessary for a street car? That is up to the individual. On our race cars I've seen crew chiefs get the bump steer adjusted to less than .050", or less, of run out over 3 inches of wheel travel. I'm fairly confident that you won't be able to feel that on street tires on the street, but you will have those same adjustment capabilities on our system if you feel it is important.
Thank you very much for your 2 cents worth. I appreciate the questions.
Damon, Red Top   

Offline falcon50flier

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Nice reply Damon. You guys are on to something in the Mopar space and you should pursue it wholeheartedly.

I did mean caster, as Mopars are notorious for having limited, and widely varying caster adjustment range because of the limited travel in the eccentrics and the fact that the jigs for the shock towers, inner fenders, and front subframe allowed A LOT of production variance.If the car was ever hit and went through front repair, chances that it would ever align properly again were diminished.

Mopars used minimal caster to keep manual steering effort low, but even power steering cars were aligned the same and of course wore the same suspension components. Getting more than a degree or two of caster, (not just for us guys that like go down the 1/4 straight and fast), isn't usually possible with stock upper arms and the eccentric system alone. Compared to a GM where you can stack shims until you run out of threads on the stud, Mopars are in need of suspension help.

How goes the rear suspension project at Red Top? Any design goals/parameters you're willing to share?

Bill
70 Challenger convertible
518 cid Hemi, TF727, 3.73 Dana 60