Author Topic: Solid or Hyd.  (Read 723 times)

Offline go-fish

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Solid or Hyd.
« on: February 24, 2007 - 03:17:33 AM »
Hi guys, it's been a while since I have posted anything. I've been a little busy.
Anyhow, I had been thinking about the engine I will be putting together when I get back home. I had bought a Hughes stroker kit (forged offerings) for my 71 360 block. This will be a centrifugal supercharged engine. I have a wish list of engine parts and originally was going with  solid roller lifters form Hughes. But after some consideration I thought I would spend the extra for Hydraulics. I was under the impression that you have to adjust a solid roller ALL the time. I was talking with a buddy of mine back in the states who runs a F1-R Pro Charger in a SBC(hevy), Why do they get "SBC"? it should be SBC(hrysler). Well, anyway, he runs solid rollers and says that the adjustment thing is mostly a myth and he doesn't have to do it ALL the time.
This is my first foray into real performance engines past a cam, 4bbl, and header swap so I am kinda learning about all these rollerized things as I go along. I would like to also know at what point do I have to tube the block. Hughes sells solid rollers in two versions; solid wall type and do not require "tubing" of the oil galley or sleeving of the lifter bores, and ones that do require tubing or bushing. #'s 5102 and 5103 respectively, the 5102 solid wall type are $50 cheaper and you don't need to tube?
On the other hand the Hydraulic stuff is bigger bucks but does that make it so much better. If the only down fall is that I have to pop the valve covers off every X amount of miles then I don't think it is much of a detractor.
The car is going to be a Strip/Street car, not a street/strip car. I plan on turning out a really good ET with 8 inches of tire a the strip and also be able to flog it on a open track at an SCCA event with it's road wheels. The latter is my primary goal, if it happens to turn a low 12 it is a bonus. I was aiming to build a touring car that was tame enough to drive on the roads not a road car that was just strong enough to get on the track. I know I know, I want it all you might say. Well I do, I only have one car and I love both drags and auto-X's.
I have some good gear to make an attempt to have both. A five speed Tremec, triangulated four link, and I will have some sub frame connectors and cage coming later (to be legal and safe).
So here I am at the engine needing some advice. I would favor the "go solid" comments but if there is some cold hard facts out there, I would like to hear it.
  I am not intrested in flat tappets. I appreciate any advice by the folks who have been there and done it, maybe ran both Hyd. & Solid on the track and street cars. Thanks.

-JohnnyC.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007 - 04:58:27 AM by go-fish »




Offline OUTLAW

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Re: Solid or Hyd. roller cam
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2007 - 04:59:51 AM »
I have had solid rollers before and you still have to adjust them frequently, but it depends more on how radical the profile is and the rocker ratio/geomtry and how hard and how often you twist the motor. On a fairly mild profile with occaisonal 6500 -7000 romps its pretty decent on only needing to adjust a couple times a summer ....BUT if you twist it hard and often then figure on doing it monthly at least

Offline go-fish

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Re: Solid or Hyd.
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2007 - 05:12:24 AM »
Well that's not bad at all then. I would probably leave the 6500 rpm rev limiter chip in the MSD. Don't want to mis a gear spead shifting and rap it up too high. The rockers will be Hughes 1.5:1 CNC rockers. I have to get with Dave Hughes on the cam to see about a pro-touring/pro-street cam........yeah right! Really though, that is going to be something I would like to get with an open tracker guy on.
So, is the adjustment issues the only thing that seperate the two? Aside from noise of course.

Offline OUTLAW

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Re: Solid or Hyd.
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2007 - 10:53:22 AM »
No the solid usually has a different ramp profile which will open and close the valve quicker in the same amout of duration ,which allows for a slightly more radical cam profile ...never seen a top fuel car with a hydraulic cam so there must be more to it than that...LOL(some say its harder on the whole vailve train than hydraulics) but to be honest I really don't think its noticeable. 

ps if you are going to use the hughes rockers ..spend the extra $$$ and get the cryogenic treated ones...they really are worth it
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007 - 10:59:14 AM by OUTLAW »

Offline moper

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Re: Solid or Hyd.
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2007 - 09:59:37 AM »
Well, you want it to do several things well, but primarilly you want a road race car. So we'll stay in that relm, and let teh rest fall where it may. First, the longevity issue...Road racing isnt liek drag racing. The engine is at mid throttle and and sustained rpms much more than in drag racing. So a stock oiling system really isnt "the way" to go. Neither is a 7qt deep sump. You want to stay on what drag racers would call "the milder side" for the sake of longevity and stability. The best way to get smooth power and hard torque accross a broad rpm range is a solid roller. my personal feeling is if you are going to spend on a roller style cam, then go solid. Hydraulic rollers are what factory engines use nowadays. They are quieter, smoother, and make the same power as a straight hydraulic flat tappet. They just dont use up as much of that same power in running themselves. But because they are still oil pressure maintained, they cannot have the same rates of lift that a solid roller, or even solid flat tappet can have. Hydraulic lifters just cant run as well. Period. So solid roller is the way to go. As far as oil delivery and systems... Hughes has the solid body rollers. So does Comp and Crane as I recall. They will not drop presure by uncovering the oil galley at peak lift. But that's all they do. They also weigh a ton (as far as roller lifters go). There is more to oil control. They were made to fix the problem most guys have. Now, tubing the block removes the possibility of oil pressure bleeding off thru the lifters during lift and because of loose fitting lifter bores. It also lends itself to the main passages being enlarged because you have to re-drill them anyway. But, it doesnt correct any lifter angle probelms that Mopars are famous for. The LA engines already have terrible pushrod angles. Mopar factory machining is some of the worst. It is to address all the issues successfully that lifter bore bushings are used. Yes, they are an addittional $400 where I go. But, they correct the machining, correct the loose tolerences, still deliver a littel oil to the tappets for endurance use, and allow lighter tappets to be run. It's the only way I'd do an engine that will see the high side of 5500 for extended periods on a regular basis. The whole job for bushings runs about $450 after the cost of the parts themselves. Tubing kits cost $50. The labor to install them is another $1-200, depeding on the shop. So really, the difference is $200. Run a used intake of carb to make that up, and just do it "right".  Cam choice depends on heads, blower setup, and fuel type at minimum. I'm not a blower guy, so I would recommend you use a pro to help you thru that. Something to remember tho, solid roller cams if you go too big, will make great power, and break things over time. They will wear out lifters (should be rebuilt every 2 years or 10K miles)and waste valve springs. So stay conservative, and I would run an oil cooler too. Also, I would not run aluminum rockers. Get some steel ones for longevity.