Author Topic: 440, 500hp, what do I need?  (Read 4789 times)

Offline ViperMan

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440, 500hp, what do I need?
« on: September 27, 2007 - 04:42:00 PM »
So I've been talking ever since I joined this board about getting a 440 for my Barracuda.  I'm still working on it - keep finding blocks and such but nothing is quite what I'm looking for...

I've also started looking for transmissions, and a guy I work with said that a 727 trans is only going to be good to about 400 horse.  I'm really hoping to get 500 out of the motor.  I thought the factory 440's had more than 400 horse to begin with - weren't they using 727 tranny's?  So is my buddy wrong, or am I going to be walking a thin line powering 500 hp through a 727?

And before you say, yes I know I could go with a manual, and probably SHOULD (simply 'cause it's the manly thing to do) but I have one 5-speed, my CHALLENGER will be a 5 speed (oh I'm getting one) and I want the 'Cuda to just be my cruizin' car.  So I'm really looking to stick with an automatic.

Lookin' forward to some  :working:

Jeff
2000 Dodge Viper GTS Coupe - 8.0L V10, 6-Speed Tremec
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited - Trail Rated - 4.7L V8, Auto
2010 Dodge Challenger SE Rallye - 3.5L V6, Auto (Wife's!)




Offline Oldschool

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Re: 440, 500hp, what do I need?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2007 - 05:08:41 PM »
727's can handle nearly anything you throw at them.  I'm pushing in the neighborhood of 800 through my 727 for over 2 years and no problems.  I did remove the pan and service it last month. It was clean and ready for more......    :2thumbs:   
Ken  --  In Georgia

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moparniac

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Re: 440, 500hp, what do I need?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2007 - 05:14:01 PM »
kevlar bands and blue clutches and youll be good for life... and a bolt in sprag...... aluminum drum would be nice if you had extra cash  :working:

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 440, 500hp, what do I need?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2007 - 02:20:43 AM »
 :iagree:
if the 727 is built right it will have no problem , it is one of the strongest car autos

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Offline RD

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Re: 440, 500hp, what do I need?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2007 - 02:32:07 PM »
i often state that a stock overhaul will handle up to 550 hp without major issues.  it really depends on who the driver is that is shifting the gears that causes trans failure.

i do recommend a bolt in sprag for added insurance, but not entirely necessary.
Eskridge, Kansas (32 Miles SW of Topeka, KS)

Offline moper

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Re: 440, 500hp, what do I need?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2007 - 12:29:55 PM »
For a street type car, a stock rebuild with good stock parts (like a new pump, all new bushings, etc) will hold things fine. If you add a manual valve body, the pressures go up. The stock frictions are OK, but you want to make fsure ther are enough in place. Some 727Bs have 4 friction clutch packs, some have 5. You can now buy 6 IIRC if you want to. The more frictions, the more surface area, the more surface area, the more power it can hold. You also want to be aware that the servos are simple cast aluminum. More pressure means more stress, and the servos can be a problem. The bolt in sprague is cheap, and always a good idea. But truthfully, the part you need to protect is the forward clutch retainer (or "drum", or "basket"). Billet steel will forever fix the explosion problem should the sprague get rolled and you dont look for it. (like when a ring gear breaks in 1st gear...). Billet aluminum is great for race cars, but it wears too fast for a street car. my "default" combo is stock rebuild with red frictions and steels, new pump, bushings, red bands, and a manual valve body, and sprague. Those hold 500hp on a street and street/strip with no issues. Next step is upgraded servos and the 4,2 lever, and a deep pan and good cooler. Next would be 5/6 disc billet steel clutch drum, and blue frictions, the servos, and the other stuff.

Offline RD

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Re: 440, 500hp, what do I need?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2007 - 03:10:52 PM »
For a street type car, a stock rebuild with good stock parts (like a new pump, all new bushings, etc) will hold things fine. If you add a manual valve body, the pressures go up. The stock frictions are OK, but you want to make fsure ther are enough in place. Some 727Bs have 4 friction clutch packs, some have 5. You can now buy 6 IIRC if you want to. The more frictions, the more surface area, the more surface area, the more power it can hold. You also want to be aware that the servos are simple cast aluminum. More pressure means more stress, and the servos can be a problem. The bolt in sprague is cheap, and always a good idea. But truthfully, the part you need to protect is the forward clutch retainer (or "drum", or "basket"). Billet steel will forever fix the explosion problem should the sprague get rolled and you dont look for it. (like when a ring gear breaks in 1st gear...). Billet aluminum is great for race cars, but it wears too fast for a street car. my "default" combo is stock rebuild with red frictions and steels, new pump, bushings, red bands, and a manual valve body, and sprague. Those hold 500hp on a street and street/strip with no issues. Next step is upgraded servos and the 4,2 lever, and a deep pan and good cooler. Next would be 5/6 disc billet steel clutch drum, and blue frictions, the servos, and the other stuff.

I agree that this combination would yield a very stout 727, but is geared more for strip usage than street/cruiser necessity.

You should first determine where you plan on using the vehicle and how you plan on using the vehicle.  You said a cruiser above, so the components listed above, though well thought out, can be overkill based upon how much money you are wanting to spend.  If you have not priced some of the components listed above, I can guarantee you they cost more than an overhaul would if bought straight up.  By the time you finish your 727 you will easily have over $1,000 in it.  Go to www.aandatrans.com or www.coperacingtrans.com and price some of the components and you will see yourself.

your transmission if built with a basic shift kit, 3.8 lever, rear bolt-in sprague, reinforced front strut band, 4 clutch disc in both drums, a tad increase in line pressure, and a rigid band will be quite all you need.

IMO, and this is only from what I have seen, front pumps need not to be replaced during an overhaul.  Check the front pump bushing for wear, remove the pump and clean the components thoroughly, then relube prior to assembly, and it should be fine (unless there is a distinct wear pattern or structural damage to pump itself or the housing).

Lastly, if you are just having a cruiser, why build 500hp?  How fast do you plan on cruising  :naughty:
Eskridge, Kansas (32 Miles SW of Topeka, KS)

Offline HP2

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Re: 440, 500hp, what do I need?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2007 - 04:02:00 PM »
Talk to the new guy about what it is like living with 500 hp on the street.

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=38149.0

Offline RD

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Re: 440, 500hp, what do I need?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2007 - 05:01:13 PM »
Talk to the new guy about what it is like living with 500 hp on the street.

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=38149.0


thanks HP2, that was exactly what I was alluding to.
Eskridge, Kansas (32 Miles SW of Topeka, KS)

Offline moper

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Re: 440, 500hp, what do I need?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2007 - 09:53:48 AM »
Talk to the new guy about what it is like living with 500 hp on the street.

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=38149.0


I followed the link and read the beginning posts. You're kidding, right?
I've had several 500hp cars I drove year round (yes, in snow with snow tires). One with a manual valve body, serveral others with autos or 4speeds. I have friends with them too. What that example is is not vindication. It's a car not as described, and a buyer who might be a little beyond what he's used to, and obviously took the seller at face value. The trans I describe is no drag race only. In fact, it's in several G machine type highway barnstormers. A side note, the same Hemi race type trans parts are used in motorhomes. The wide double wrap band, the 5 disc clutch drum, the 4 pinion planetaries, the higher shift points (governor weights), etc. It's predominantly the convertor that determines whether it's street or strip. And in both street car cases above, they now have 2200 and 2500 respectively. That's only a shade about a street hemi factory unit behind a 383 in a RR. The one going to XV's track rental is a full reverse pattern MVB, plus huge brakes an power assist (hydro-boost), 500hp dyno'd, 3.55 geared with OD. But it has the gunslinger shifter, the pattern's no issue, and the driver wants to be able to shift himself. Another has the TA auto/manual valve body from a couple years ago. Also, a very nice part. I've dropped driveshafts getting on the highway in stock 383 2bbl cars that broke the sprague as a result. And the drum is what explodes if you over look the sprague damage. So it's no racing. It's life with a torqueflite. As an FYI, the tranny in my Cuda has 3 years of street duty behind a 470hp 440 6bbl, currently has a 3500 convertor (had 2200 on the street), and is bone stock except the CHeeta valve body. I rebuilt it myself when I was working in a  muffler shop, it was done overnite, and cost about $500 with the new convertor. I replace pumps because they are $75 new and come with the bushing. It's faster/cheaper than paying me to pull, disassemble, inspect, replace the bushing, re-assemble, and install the seal. The one in my Cuda I didnt replace any bushings of pump. And, I ran it thru the factory slap stick for 3 years. Until one time at the track ,the car twisted so bad it shifted up into 2nd off the line. Streetable 500 hp is nothing. So long as it's done right. You're correct in thinking it's a bear if the car's a mess. But I find stock 340 cars that are bigger messes sometimes..lol. :2thumbs:

Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 440, 500hp, what do I need?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2007 - 11:21:15 AM »


I'll be running a "stock" 540ci Hemi with 615-630hp max. Weekly driver. Lucy is 400hp and she hasn't got nearly enough oomph for me. My Cuda will have rubber band like (for this kind of power) 275/60s and a 5-Speed. Will just take a little practice and clutch work to get her to hook under 3/4 throttle or so. But, like any car, you can drive it on the street like any modern 1.3L, just when you open her up be prepared to back off or pedal, not saying it will just be ready. As for fuel consumption we're aiming for 18-19mpg. I think 500hp is more than fine. :2cents:

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Offline ViperMan

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Re: 440, 500hp, what do I need?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2007 - 09:25:22 AM »
Lastly, if you are just having a cruiser, why build 500hp?  How fast do you plan on cruising  :naughty:

I plan on cruising comfortably until I see someone who needs to be reminded what a REAL car is...

Or shall we say I plan on cruising with intent to cause trouble...  :)

And lemme add that 500 is my minimum goal, (though I don't plan on going crazy.)
2000 Dodge Viper GTS Coupe - 8.0L V10, 6-Speed Tremec
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Offline RD

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Re: 440, 500hp, what do I need?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2007 - 03:26:24 PM »
I know guys that run 11.20's to 40's on just a RMVB, 4 clutch front/rear, 4 front/rear gear planetary, bolt in sprag, red clutches/bands and a 4.2 lever, without upgrading to cnc'd or aluminum drums, 5.0 lever, roller components, ultimate sprag, hardened pump gears, lightened sunshell, etc. etc.

hope that helps.
Eskridge, Kansas (32 Miles SW of Topeka, KS)