Car and Driver Magazine XV Challenger

[backtobasics]

Here is a thought:

I would like to see the same comparison run, but with a TWIST.
I want to see a stock OEM car, the XV car, and a MODIFIED OEM car.  By this I mean, I would like to see a premium effort car of OEM architecture, but with aftermarket upgrades.  
For example:

Poly bushings
aftermarket sway bar setup
premium shocks
firm feel, or flaming river steering box,
C body tie rods
4 wheel discs, either big name, like Baer, or another aftermarket alternative
Comparable wheels and tires to XV car

I would love to see an E body, with modern upgrades, Fuel injected or not, to see how they stack up, when built to modern standards, to XV.   I admittedly took slight offense to the "chopsaw in garage" remark in the magazines, because I am chopsaw in garage.   While there might be those out there with checkbooks to spend the hundreds of thousands on an XV, I want to see how well a solid effort, stock E body would stack up, if given a chance.   17" or 18" versus 15" is not a comparison.    How about it XV?  Care to build a stock architecture E body, with good aftermarket parts, similiar wheels and tires, similiar brakes, to prove your products superiority?

[HP2]

They have already done that with their level 1 car. The Level 1 car being all stock suspension and mounting points maintained, but with premium parts and engineering analysis to optimize all the pieces. So there are three comparison points;

Stock, original, or restored to original. (XV's original TA)
Modified OEM using premium parts in a stock appearing package. (XV Level 1 car- red cuda)
No holds bar, unlimited , open class, make it the best it can be within the platform. (XV Level 2-orange Challenger)

Now, can you build a stock suspensded car that will outperform the Level 1 and handle on par with the Level 2? Sure, but you are getting into race car territory and ride quality will suffer at that point. The level 1 system is designed for the best road holding ability combined with ride comfort for an overall improvement that will put a 30 year old car on the same road handling capability as any late model vehicle. For the average guy, this is a huge advantage because all the suspension voodoo has been dialed in for you already an dyou just need to bolt it together. The price is also not much beyond what it would cost you to do all the same pieces individually.

Level 2 set ups are designed for the check book buyer who has plenty of disposable income and wants a classic mopar super car that can do more than trip the lights of the 1320. John can correct me if I'm off base here, but the Level 2 car is not targeting the "average" mopar enthusiast but is after the same market where you see Lingenfelter Camaros, Shelby Mustangs, and Hennessy Vipers. However, if you have the desire, XV will sell you all the parts to perform the work yourself, which is a distinct difference between XV and other builders mentioned.

[backtobasics]

Have they done a comparison with their Level 1 car to stock anywhere?
If so, that is one I have not read.  Most of what I am seeing is the level 2 car, with the alum substructure,  tubular arms, etc.

I vote for a comparison of Level 1 versus a stocker, not the max effort car, to show what the extisting architecture is capable with premium parts, wheels and tires.

[DQHemi]

Get the DVD and you can see alot for yourself.
We can't compare every iteration of components, not realistic.

We did what Car and Driver wanted for comparison purposes. 
They wanted stock vs 'restomod' - so that is what we did w/ them.

Our Level I works quite well, but there are also intangibles you won't get from raw numbers.

Autoweek just did a piece on us as well in their 10-29 issue:

T/A:
"The period correct T/A has vague steering, iffy brakes, squirrely rear axle tramp and hop, body lean and high speed float"

XV Car:
"Ride and handling are transformed into those of a modern GT car, with precise steering, powerful braking, confident cornering and a firm yet compliant ride.  Power delivery is  instantaneous, with a basso exhaust snarl.  Chrysler would do well to make this car the new '08 Dodge Challanger's benchmark."

They drove both cars as well.

We wouldn't be getting publications like these to cover us if we went to them with our Level I setup.  Believe me, it is no small feat that we got into Car and Driver and Autoweek.

[DQHemi]

Level 2 set ups are designed for the check book buyer who has plenty of disposable income and wants a classic mopar super car that can do more than trip the lights of the 1320. John can correct me if I'm off base here, but the Level 2 car is not targeting the "average" mopar enthusiast but is after the same market where you see Lingenfelter Camaros, Shelby Mustangs, and Hennessy Vipers. However, if you have the desire, XV will sell you all the parts to perform the work yourself, which is a distinct difference between XV and other builders mentioned.

We also make all our own pieces for the cars we build. 

On the Level II, realistically it hasn't been within alot of people's budget, so by definition typical guy isn't going to spend the money on it.  So it's been going into alot of high end builds and guys that want best in class. 

However, we're actually going to offer it in less expensive configurations to make it within reach to more people.  Won't be cheap, but we can do it at a much lower price point using different shocks, brakes, springs, etc.  Differences will be in thousands of dollars.  Still may not be for everybody, but will definitely be an option for more people this way.

I also think a really cool  setup would be our Level I front and Level II rear.  I think the T-Bar setup can be made to work alot better than the leaf springs can, or rather there are bigger gains to be had that way.  Again, we can get price down on the rear as well y going over what we're using.

We'll also start offering Level I in components or groups of components - i.e. Tbars and shocks, Leafs and shocks, etc. 

We're working on all of this now, will be a few weeks before we sort it all out, but we think it makes sense to broaden the market for our Level II setup without compromising it too much.

[HP2]

Have they done a comparison with their Level 1 car to stock anywhere?
If so, that is one I have not read. 

Yes, this was covered in the many episodes of Dream Car Garage last year, which is available without all the other junk from the TV show on the dvd that XV offers. There also are bits and pieces of the videos on their web site.

Our Level I works quite well, but there are also intangibles you won't get from raw numbers.

Very true. It is like comparing peak horsepower numbers from a race specific engine to the overall torque curve of a solidly built big block. On paper, they look worlds apart, but on the street they are more evenly matched because not everyone drives around taching up 6000 rpm on a regular basis. Same with suspensions. You don't always need to cut a corner at 1g to appreciate shocks that match your spring rates that balance the car perfectly so you can drop the hammer and actually drive and not just hang on.

T/A: "The period correct T/A has vague steering, iffy brakes, squirrely rear axle tramp and hop, body lean and high speed float"

The statement about the T/A is pretty close to what a lot of guys are driving around in already on their restored muscle cars. Sure, they may have ditched the bias plys for radials and MAYBE some better alignment specs, but more often than not, suspension improvements are at the bottom of the list for guys doing a restoration. It is only in the last ten years I've seen a big surge in interest in actually making a classic turn corners better.