440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition

Author Topic: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition  (Read 10573 times)

Offline hookem78613

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I am currently having issue getting my car in timing.  I have a rebuilt/recurve distributor from FBO that is setup for 16 intial and 34 total with a vacuum advance.  If I set the base timing it goes up to 40 degrees total timing! No good.  If I run it up to 3K RPM and set it at 34 it wont stay running at idle?  I don't think I have enough vacuum at idle though because it's only reading 5HG at idle? So when it drops to idle the advance isn't working and the engine dies. I am at a loss here....I could have swore I had 12HG of vaccum when I checked it last. So I am not sure what to do? Any suggestions why I don't have enough vacuum?  the engine is a stroker with a 509 cam and 1.6 lifters...running MSD box with a stock type distributor.

Hookem
74 Barracuda Drag Car - Big Block /727
68 Charger R/T - 440 Stroker / 727




Offline matt63

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2007 - 09:00:40 PM »
Remove the vacuum advance and plug the port to the carb.  Then check your initial and total timing to see what you really have for timing.  You may not need the vacuum advance anyway. 

ps my 383 only had 4.5"  of vacuum with the MP509 cam.

Matt in Edmonton

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Offline 70RT/SE

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2007 - 09:24:23 PM »
What port are you checking vacuum on?  I have a 440 stroker with a FBO setup and I set intial timing @22deg and total with vac adv is 34deg.
 The vacuum canister should be connected to a ported vacuum source. Ported vacuum is drawn from just above the throttle blades to make sure the vacuum canister does not advance at idle.

Offline hookem78613

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2007 - 01:57:59 AM »
I thought the vacuum advance was supposed to hook up to manifold vacuum?  It is hooked up to vacuum port just to the left (if your facing the carb) of the large manifold vacuum port in the front.  I have a vacuum canister hooked up but it is tee'd in off the rear port off the rear of the carb(manifold). I plugged the port in the back and nothing changed on the vacuum guage. I can unplug the vacuum advance at idle and nothing changes? Can incorrect timing cause vacuum problems?  The FBO disty has been setup to run off 11hg of vacuum and won't advance enough to keep it running at idle I guess. Supposed to be 16 or 18 and 34 total at 3000 rpm.  I guess I can go all mechanical advance but I wasn't sure i'd have too.  The 509 should provide enough vacuum shouldn't it?
74 Barracuda Drag Car - Big Block /727
68 Charger R/T - 440 Stroker / 727

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2007 - 02:53:49 AM »
the 509 make very poor vacuum 5" is typical , I would advance the timing & get the engine to idle , get a reading of this timing where it runs best then set timing at 300 rpm to where it runs best , advance it until the rpm stop rising , you want the timing just on the cusp of where the rpm increases & levels off & get a reading , you may need to weld or limit the slots int he mechanical advance to creat a curve between the 2 readings you took or just eliminate the vacuum advance or adjust it with an allen wrench until you get the right curve 

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Offline moper

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2007 - 12:29:06 PM »
I think you're confusing yourself. Any RB based stroker (I'm assuming 4.15 crank/500"?) will make that .509 behave like a stocker. So, at 5" if vaccum you have an issue or two. First, the base timing. Unplug the vacuum pod on the dist, and plug the hose. (we'll get back to which port later) Use the timing light to set the static timing to 15° BTDC. That's usually a good place to start. reset idle speed to below 800rpm. If it wont idle, the mixture screws may be off, or the idle speed screw may be out too far (slower). Get it set to 800 rpm, then re-check the base setting. If it has moved, reset to 15° and tighten. then, using a vacuum gage, adjust the mixture screws to the highest reading, then re-adjust speed, and retune mix, etc. When it's as good as you can get, you can increase the idle if you liek it higher. I dont like them over 900 or so unless the cam forces it. In your case, you should be able to run that thing at 800 with no issues and plenty of vacuum (over 10"). Then, rev the egnie slowly by hand and check the timing at 1500, 2000, 2500, and 3000 rpms. Write them down. It should advance from idle to about 2200 depending on the curve Don installed. If it keeps rising, try going to 3200. The total should be no more than 38°, and frankly, I wouldnt ever run that much in a stroked RB anyway. 32-34 total, without vacuum is the range I look for. If you got it, it's fine. If it's higher, I'd verify it's right by FBO. If it's low, you can add initial to get things right. The vacuum advance is meant (on a mopar) to be run off ported vacuum. Not manifold. Your vaccum can is manifold. If you have a Holley carb, its the nipple on the front metering block, pass side. If it's an edelbrock, it's the port to the pass side, on the front of the carb. If it's a Demon and has the ported vacuum source, it's the rearward port on the pass side of the base plate. If you arent sure, at idle, there wont be any signal present. But as you open the throttle, vacuum will come up on a ported source. I have several 500+ inch engines that develop way over 5" of vacuum at idle, and they have cams about 30% larger than a MP .509. If the cam wasnt degreed, the cam is probably not indexed right. If you cant get things better, take a cylinder pressure reading. If it's low, you found the problem.

Offline hookem78613

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2007 - 01:47:38 AM »
Okay. NOW I AM REALLY CONFUSED!  I thought you needed Vacuum at idle to advance the timing in order to burn cleaner. As you accelerate the vacuum disappears because of the throttle blades opening and the resulting change in pressure.  I admit that I don't know much but even a few books I have on carb tuning and FBO's book says manifold vacuum? Can someone please clarify? Should I be hooked up to the nipple on the metering block or the manifold port on the baseplate? I do think I have a carb issue though.  It looks like someone has been drilling holes in throttle plates on this carb. I also noticed that the secondary plates have holes in them and don't close completely either. I adjusted the primary throttle plates because they were out of adjustment and are probably contributing to my idling problems and partial throttle surging. I think I am just going to get a new carb as I don't want to try and figure out what the heck someone else did to this thing. Don suggested a 750CFM Mighty demon because he thought it may speed up airflow and increase vacuum. Also may help low end power and since I am running a single plane intake. I think a 825 or 850 would be best though? Any opinions? As far as ignition...I am still up in the air about that?  If I can get more vacuum, the advance should work correctly right? However it doesn't explain why the timing goes all the way up to 40 degrees or more. unless my base timing is off or the disty is screwed for some reason. Don has been helping me but it's a slow process. To be sure I have to get the vacuum figured out before I can determine if there is something wrong with the distributor.  I know....timing first then carb...but I since I am using the advance I don't know what else to do. I think I may just send it back to FBO to check and get another disty setup for mechanical advance just incase. 

Hookem
74 Barracuda Drag Car - Big Block /727
68 Charger R/T - 440 Stroker / 727

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2007 - 02:27:57 AM »
for Vacuum advance to work correctly you need to have it connected to Ported vacuum on the side of the metering block , the timing has to advance with rpm , hooking it to manifold vacuum gives you full advance at idle & it drops with rpm , this is the best way to kill fuel milage & power & make the engine run hot
drilling holes in the throttle plates allow the throttle plates to be closed & still use the idle transfer slots , with a low vacuum engine this will help for sure , I often have to insert welding wire into the idle bleeds to increase vacuum signal in the idle circuit , if this works on some carbs you can replace the bleeds to accomplish the same thing
 if you are going with a new carb I would start with double the CI so 440 = 880 , use an 850 minimum

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Offline Oldschool

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2007 - 10:19:18 AM »
  :iagree:  Once again....    :2thumbs:   
Ken  --  In Georgia

MOPAR-------"Built To Run------Here To Stay"

Offline moper

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2007 - 01:11:54 PM »
To add to your confusion... the wet flow Demon and Holley Avenger stuff in a 750 cfm rating is the equivolent of the dry flowed Edelbrocks or older Holley sizes of 830-850cfm. Unplug the vaccum and set it that way first. Then get it to run well, then you can plug on the vacuum and mess with that. Isolate it, then figure it out when that is the only issue left. :bigsmile:

Offline cudabob496

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2007 - 12:11:09 AM »
In my humble opinion, if you have a stroker 440, then dump the vacuum advance altogether. Its only to help get better milage, and I'm sure your car is not your daily driver. Also, I think you can be quicker on the street without vacuum advance. And the stock Mopar distributors with vacuum advance can be a pain reliability wise. After having a lot of timing issues, I dumped the vacuum advance, and eventually went with an MSD distributor, and things improved noticably. But, I don't know 1/10 of what these other guys on this site might know.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

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Offline 67Vette427

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2007 - 08:17:39 PM »
With the 70 Challenger I ran the 472 Hemi with the 509 cam. It was around 5" at idle. I didn't run the vacuum advance. I ran it around 10*-12* then worked the mechanical advance to where I wanted the total.
On the Cuda with the 528 I do the same, as with the Vette with the 502.
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Offline backtobasics

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2007 - 05:40:30 PM »
509 cam in 340 here.
Engine made 4 inches of vacuum.

We could set it for idle, and it ran poor up high.
We could set it for high rpm performance, and idled for crap.

The vacuum the engine was making was not enough to keep the vacuum mechanism held at lower RPM, which is why when initial was set for best idle, it was not getting enough advance up top.

We went to full mechanical advance distributor from MSD.

Offline cudabob496

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2007 - 03:21:02 AM »
you mean 1.6 rockers?  Using 1.6 instead of 1.5 may be contributing to the problem, because big block mopars with 1.5 rockers can handle pretty radical cams and still be streetable.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline Aussie Challenger

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Re: 440 Stroker Issues - Not enough vacuum/ Vacuum advance / ignition
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2007 - 04:18:39 AM »
  Definetly plug the vacuum advance on the distributor, do all your other adjustments, get the car running correctly. Sort out everything else then if you are looking for economy start to play with the vacuum advance but don't touch the distributor settings above. Adjust the vacuum advance through the unit on the distributor until you are happy.
  Note, autos can generally handle more vacuum advance than stick or manuals.   :working:
Dave