What is Oversteer?

Author Topic: What is Oversteer?  (Read 1952 times)

Offline basement

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What is Oversteer?
« on: March 15, 2009 - 12:21:38 PM »
Not sure if what I'm feeling is 'oversteer' but when turning the steering wheel a distance of say 10-15degrees the car feels like it is turning more then I'm giving it, in either direction left or right, if that makes any sense. I have not done anything different to the car and have only been driving the car a short time so can't really say if its always acted like this. Oh, it does have power steering. Any thoughts?




Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: What is Oversteer?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2009 - 12:28:37 PM »
that is oversteer , the rear of the car feels loose & want to pass the front in corners .
there are a lot of reasons that this could feel that way ,tire pressures , front end alignment , height if the rear end of the car , bad shocks on the rear , worn leaf spring bushings ...start checking
 new shocks & a rear sway bar will help the feel for sure but you still need to eliminate problems if they exist

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Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: What is Oversteer?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2009 - 02:13:59 PM »
I'm not sure that "oversteer" is the correct way to describe it. It takes a lot of suspension work to get these cars to truly oversteer in corners, from the factory they tend to understeer or "push" in hard cornering situations (you go blazing into a corner, turn the wheel, the wheels do turn, but the car just keeps going straight...). Oversteer on the other hand, as CP pointed out, results in the back end of the car stepping out during hard cornering, resulting in a nice "drift" if you know what you're doing.

More than likely what you're feeling is just the "vague" sensation that mopar power steering tends to give. There's very little road feedback to the power steering on these cars, and after turning the wheel a certain amount and stopping it does almost feel like the car just keeps turning. This is because of the large assist ratio on the power steering, 26:1 in most cases. With such a large assist, it almost feels like you get a "lag" in the steering feeling, especially with a older box. If I'm not mistaken, there is an adjustment on the steering box you can use to tighten it up if there's too much play.

As CP pointed out, I'd check the suspension out and make sure nothing was broken just in case, but since it does it the same in both directions my money is on a combination of old mopar power steering and a little bit of play in the tie rods/ball joints. The wear in the steering box, ball joints and tie rods can lead to slop in the steering, which will make the feeling the power steering gives you even worse. Has the front suspension ever been rebuilt? I know after I redid my front end the steering felt a lot more accurate, even though I did nothing to the steering box itself.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009 - 02:33:36 PM by 72bluNblu »

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: What is Oversteer?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2009 - 02:16:17 PM »
Maximizing the caster settings to close to 3* help to put load on the power steering to give more feel when turning

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Offline vinb

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Re: What is Oversteer?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2009 - 06:17:17 PM »
I took the power steering out and put in a manual box, it's a little bit of a pain parking but very nice driving down the road. You have much better feel.
Everyone like's something a little different I guess..  :cheers:

Offline autoxcuda

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Re: What is Oversteer?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2009 - 09:02:25 PM »
Mopar power steering was 16:1. But optional on Trans Am and std on late 71 340 cars was the 12.7 power steering (accomplished by a longer pitman arm).

Manual steering is 24:1 ratio. But in 66-69 A-bodies there was an optional 16:1 box.

To experiance oversteer or understeer you need to be going around a corner at the limits and either the front or rear tires are skidding sideways.

Sounds like the original poster has got worn suspension parts, bad alignment, or has gotten used to driving newer cars that are more precise and have newer parts.

With some diagnosing bad/worn parts and some fairly straightfoward mods you can improve things quite a lot.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009 - 09:04:48 PM by autoxcuda »
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Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: What is Oversteer?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2009 - 11:46:52 PM »
whoops, thanks autoX, looks like I combined my ratio's!!


Offline LAA66

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Re: What is Oversteer?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009 - 12:02:15 AM »
 As an opposite situation, after rebuilding the front end, new FFI box, and adding caster now a push or under steer has developed in my 70 Challenger. When turning hard the steering wants more input but it seems the tires won't respond.  It's kinda like you steer/skid the front end around the corner if that makes sense. 

Offline HP2

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Re: What is Oversteer?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009 - 07:30:37 AM »
Under/over steer is typically the result of mismatched wheel rates with t-bars, s-bars,  or leaf springs that are just arbitrarily replaced without consideration of the whole package.

Take a stock, no front sway bar suspension, add super stock springs and a rear sway bar and you'll have a loose, oversteering car.

Take a stock suspension, add 1.12" t-bars, 1.125 s-bar and leave the old four leaf springs in the rear and you've a tight, under steering car.

The end of the car with the most wheel rate in excess of its load requirement is the end that will slide first. Since these front engined cars, the nose has to have more absolute rate, but the proportion to load is what achieves the balance.

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: What is Oversteer?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009 - 10:24:41 AM »
found this  list....

Front tire pressure higher: less under steer by reducing slip angels on most tires
Usable adjustment: up to 55psi hot
Symptoms of too much adjustment: no traction- tire crowned so more under steer; adds wheel spin in FF cars; jarring ride; center of tire wears out

Front tire pressure lower: more under steer by increasing slip angles on most tires
Usable adjustment: not less then 20psi
Symptoms of too much adjustment: edges of tire wear quickly because tire is folding over; feels mushy; tires chunk because low pressure means heat build up.

Rear tire pressure higher: less over steer by reducing slip angles on most tires
Usable range: up to 45psi hot
Symptoms of too much adjustment: no traction—tire is crowned so more over steer; bad wheel spin on FR cars; jarring ride; center of tire wears out.

Rear tire pressure lower: more over steer by incresing slip angles on most tires.
Usable range: not less then 20psi
Symptoms of too much adjustment: edges of tire wear quickly because tire is folding over; feels mushy; tires chunk because low pressure means heat build up

More negative camber front: less under steer because of better lateral traction as tread is flatter on the ground under side load.
Usable range: up to 3.5 degrees negative
Symptoms of too much adjustment: poor braking; car is road crown sensitive; twitchy; front tires wear on inside edge

More negative camber rear: less over steer because of better lateral traction as tread is flatter on the ground under side load. More rear grip
Usable range: up to 2.5 degrees negative
Symptoms of too much adjustment: more over steer; car feels twitchy in back; tires wear out on inside edge; less breakaway warning when limit is exceeded.

Ride height to low (typical beginner mistake): car is twitchy with unpredictable dynamics. Bump steer make you life miserable.
Usable range: usually 1.5-2.0 inches lower then stock unless car has been modified to go lower.
Symptoms of too much adjustment: everything that could possibly go wrong: sudden over/under steer; twitchy due to bump steer; very harsh ride; premature tire wear.

Toe in – front: car is stable going straight. Turn in is average
Usable range: 0-1/8th inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: car has slow twitchiness under braking; feels odd; kills outside edge of tires

Toe out – front: Car turns in well; works pretty well on FF car as they tend to toe-in under load.
Usable range: 0-1/4 inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: Car is really twitchy under braking; car wanders on straight road; kills inside edge of tire

Toe in – rear: car is less likely to over steer when the throttle is lifted
Usable range: 0-1/8th inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: weird, slow, rocking movement in back; feels slow but still unstable; wears outside edge of tires.

Toe out – rear: Helps car rotate useful in low speed and slalom courses; very common on FF pro rally cars.
Usable range: 0-1/8th inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: not to good for street driving; causes lift throttle over steer; makes violent side to side rocking motions in the rear; tie wears on inside more.

Positive front caster: helps stability; suspension will get more negative camber when turning; reducing positive caster reduces steering effort. (Negative caster is not usable)
Usable range: 4-9 degrees positive
Symptoms of too much adjustment: can increase under steer especially in cars with wide low-profile tires. Can increase steering effort.

Single adjustable shock stiffer: Better turn in; better transient response; causes slower onset of over/under steer by slowing weight transfer depending on what end of the car is adjusted.
Symptoms of too much adjustment: suspension becomes unresponsive; ride gets harsh; car skips over bumps, loosing traction; Causes a big delay in weight transfer resulting in strange handling like under steer then late corner stage over steer.

Single adjustable shock softer: slower transient response; quicker onset of over/under steer
Symptoms of too much adjustment: car oscillates due to under dampened spring motion, like a boat. Car gets twitchy in turns. Feels unstable.


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Offline LAA66

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Re: What is Oversteer?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2009 - 10:52:15 AM »
 Very informative Wade. Lots to consider. :thumbsup:

 How much does a rear sway bar help in an understeer situation? (Front has factory/poly bushed 7/8" with .92 t-bars, sb 340 a66 performance package)