Author Topic: Trouble  (Read 1311 times)

Offline BadJoey

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Trouble
« on: June 03, 2009 - 09:32:38 PM »
I have a 440 out of a 67 GTX in a 70 Challenger .Here is the problem the rear (oil seal ?) is leaking out of the bell housing . The motor was rebuilt by a professional who has done many race motors over the years . One time I did not have the dip stick in all the way and it was blowing oil out of the dip stick tube . The PVC valve is new and working .

So I guess my question would be is the seal bad or am I getting blow by pushing oil out of the seal . Car runs smooth and has plenty of power . Do I have to pull the engine to change the seal or can I just drop the trans . What should the compression be cold on a 440 ?

I'm guessing start with a compression test any thoughts out there ?




Offline Moparal

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2009 - 09:40:05 PM »
4 qts in the oil pan on a 5 qt system with filter. Which is just about every bb pan design cept for 6pk n hemi. hp is a 4qt system like a 402 pan.  Most people over fill and put 6. With this in mind, the wind from the crank and in oil blows out the tube....easy...and always.  And check the back of the block to make sure the sending unit is screwed down tight and the other plug beside it. This will cause oil to leak down and can make you think a rear seal. Then you have a cam plug in the back behind the bell housing and 2 dowel plugs back there too.  I would atleast check these things out first

You can change the rear seal with the engine installed. But it is a pain in the ass but can be done easy enough, it just plain sucks tho.

wagesofsin

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2009 - 09:54:22 PM »
 :iagree:

what he said.

Offline BadJoey

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2009 - 05:05:26 AM »
Al wrote:
4 qts in the oil pan on a 5 qt system with filter. Which is just about every bb pan design cept for 6pk n hemi. hp is a 4qt system like a 402 pan.

Does this mean I should only have 4 quarts of oil in the car total cause there is 5 in there total ? And would that cause it to leak from the seal if that is where the leak is ? Thanks . :banghead:

Offline Moparal

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2009 - 10:08:06 AM »
4 in the pan and 1 for the filter :2thumbs:

Offline moper

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2009 - 12:56:45 PM »
If you mean it blew liquid oil outt he tube, I would to a leakdown test before you pull the rear main out. Oil will flood out the block if there's no tube (oops...lol done that twice...) but no way will windage drive it 12+ inches and out the top of the tube. That's crankcase pressure. And perhaps too much. a leakdown (not compression test, but related) will tell you if the rings are sealing.

Offline BadJoey

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2009 - 06:46:36 PM »
Talked to my engine guy for a couple hours after work and he gave me 2 things to check .

1) he said check the bolts in the bottom of the pan . If they aren 't tight enough the oil could be leaking into the bell housing 'says he has seen it happen before because there is 2 gaskets and the tray .

2) The one I think it is . My PVC valve goes into the breather and he said no way is that enough vacuum . On top of that the cap on my other valve cover is solid and does not let any air into the motor . The way he explained it to me is , you have to have clean air coming in to replace the bad air going out . Not enough vacuum pulling the air out and no supply coming in would cause the seal to leak .

Hopefully I'll find out Saturday .

Offline femtnmax

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2009 - 07:06:07 PM »
Your PVC system needs to be corrected as you say.  The solid valve cover cap needs to be replaced with a vented cap to make the "inlet side" of the system, or use a cap with hose that goes to air cleaner assy.  Best to have some sort of "inlet" filter, either a metal screen built into the cap, or a small foam filter in the air cleaner/hose connection.
Then on the pvc valve, the valve fits into a rubber grommet on the opposite valve cover to the "inlet side".  The hose from the PVC valve goes to intake manifold vacuum.  Some carbs have a hose fitting built into the carb base, many other setups have a fitting built into the intake manifold just below the carb base.  This fitting is not to be confused with the fitting for power brakes which usually is on one of the intake manifold runners leading one cylinder.
With engine idling, and with good piston ring seal, a correctly working pvc system can be checked as follows:  Take the cap off the "inlet side" of the system (not the pvc valve side).  Place a small piece of paper towel over the hole in the valve cover.  The scrap of paper will be drawn down onto the valve cover and held there by the vacuum created in the engine oil pan/crankcase by the PVC valve.
So in summary, the intake manifold has high vacuum with engine idling, this pulls a vacuum thru the pvc valve, which pulls vacuum thru the engine crankcase, which pulls vacuum at the valve cover "inlet" side of the system causing the scrap of paper towel to be held against the valve cover by engine vacuum. 
Then clean all the dripping oil off everywhere, and if leaks continue, the previous posts all have correct things to inspect.
Phil

Offline moper

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2009 - 11:57:03 AM »
What Fent said... You have a PCV, but it's not functioning as you have it set.

Offline BadJoey

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2009 - 08:32:42 PM »
My new oil breather cap will be here at 8 AM .My friend at the auto parts told me that these motors were known for blowing oil out the crank seal when the PVC valves plug up . Same idea no venting . I hope it,s that easy .  :stirpot:

Offline BadJoey

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2009 - 05:08:33 PM »
Just got home. Fixed the PVC set up . Not leaking as bad but still losing oil . I,m hoping that I might be getting extra piston blow by because the rings are not seated yet . I have about 100 miles on it so far . I'm going out to check the oil pan bolts now . :clueless:

Offline moper

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2009 - 10:22:08 AM »
The rings should have seated it the bores were honed properly for the ring typw used (I'm assuming moly rings?) Sometimes when a seal has been under forces not designed into it so you may need to replace the seal even after fixing the pressure problem. Give it a little time. Theres a lot of oil that needs to drain away. You can try using some brake cleaner and hosing down the seal area too.

Offline BadJoey

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2009 - 02:28:59 PM »
Here is the latest .The pan bolts were very loose , after tightening them I went for a ride . Still leaking but less . Next I cleaned everything and went for a easy ride babying the motor (low RPM's) no leak . Then a harder ride (more RPM,s) and got more leaking . There is a connection between how hard I push and the leak . I have to think things are just not broken in yet . Not going to do anything but drive it for now and see what happens . God knows I do not want to take things apart for nothing . :stirpot:

Offline moper

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2009 - 11:52:33 AM »
yup, drive it a bit and see what it does. If the rings get better, the problem will solve itself. If it doesnt stop leaking when you beat on it, do a leakdown test and see how bad the rings are.

Offline wally426ci

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Re: Trouble
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2009 - 02:57:51 PM »
Maybe its a high pressure oil pump..... not high volume.
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