Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?

Author Topic: Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?  (Read 1877 times)

Offline widing'cuda

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 586
  • 70 'cuda383 - BS23N0E
    • w i d i n g ' c u d a
Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?
« on: May 26, 2009 - 05:35:03 PM »
I have just installed Cap tubular upper control arm on my 'cuda. (http://www.capautoproducts.com/upper_control.php?pageid=16&osCsid=20rmdl4v9unn6vqk0cuigqf3q5) And I got a littled worried when I found this topic on Moparts.org
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5210269&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

So are tubular upper control arm as safe as stock upper control arms? Anyone using CAP's upper control arm? If not who's upper control arms are you guys using? I'm thinking of changing to FFI (http://www.firmfeel.com/tubuca_e.htm)  or RMS (http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16166&cat=265&page=1) upper conrol arms if I hear more bad stories about CAP's one.  :-\
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009 - 05:42:43 PM by widing'cuda »

- Jørgen - Norwegian Mopar fanatic

1970 Plymouth 'Cuda 383 A833 8-3/4 3.23 suregrip
http://cuda.widing.biz/




Offline Bluemonster71RT

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 510
Re: Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2009 - 07:36:43 PM »
Not to start a thread like the one from that site.  But if you read all the posts in that wrecked RR topic then one would see that the owner did some big miss matching of parts. My thoughts are as long as you install them correctly and have the correct corresponding parts un-like that guy, you would be fine.   
1971 Challenger RT 383 4spd

Offline 72bluNblu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
Re: Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2009 - 12:03:24 AM »
Tubular A-arms, if constructed properly, are much stronger than stockers. Metal fatigues over time, not to mention rusts. The stock arms flex, and at this point are close to being 40 years old. The tubular construction itself can be much stronger than stock, but since they are constructed with welds the strength of the weld can come into play.

I have CAP a-arms on my car, and I've seen all of the various threads and pictures of that Road Runner. Following the accident, the welds on BOTH a-arms were broken. I'm not usually a betting man, but I'd wager anything I've got on those arms not breaking simultaneously while the owner was driving down the road. Sorry, its a statistical improbability. Next- yes, they broke at the welds. Welded joints are not stronger (and can't be!) stronger than the metal they join. Typically in engineering circles welds are considered to be 80-90% of the strength of the base metal. Which makes them weaker than the tubing they join. Typically, it is easier to bend the tubing than fracture the weld, but in this case, the wheels slamming into a curb, the force applied is done in a VERY short impulse, loading everything in shear, not bending, and something has to break. The wheels stopped (if only for an instant) when they slammed the curb, the car kept going, the weld was weaker than the a-arms connection to the frame. Keep in mind also the the tubes, with a relatively thin wall, are welded to a relatively thick ball-joint retainer. That mismatch can be difficult to deal with from a welding standpoint. From a fracture standpoint, the ball-joint retainer will be very difficult to deform, transferring the stress to the weld.

I was a little disappointed to see that the CAP a-arms are MIG welded, but that isn't a deal breaker. Yes, I'll keep an eye on mine, but no, I'm not racing out to replace them. I'd be willing to bet there was something else involved in the crash of that RR, like the 3.5" skinnies on the front maybe? Turned the wheel and kept going straight maybe?

At any rate, I've seen more than one cracked stock A-arm. They were not designed for strength from the factory, they were designed to be cheap to produce, which is why they are made with very flexible stamped steel. The factory did not have handling in mind! I'm not sure I would buy the CAP a-arms again, seeing up close their design and construction. There are better choices out there. But I've had no issues with mine, and I'm not too concerned about it. I might add a gusset between the tubes and around the back of the ball-joint retainer at some point just for giggles. But on the whole, a well constructed tubular a-arm is stronger, less likely to flex, and is probably lighter than the worn out stockers. I doubt you have a complete history on the a-arms in your car, so unless you buy NOS, you're not only putting the design of the stockers against the tubular arms, you're also putting 40 years of wear and tear on the table. I feel safer with my CAP arms than my rusted stock a-arms.

Offline dodge freak 2

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 825
Re: Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2009 - 09:45:34 AM »
I have a different model car Magnum/Regis but used SPC Performance control arms...seem very nice..tag did say 'race only"  :screwy: I say their crazy cause go to your new Corvette dealer and check out how that $40,000 ride is put together (no way that thing can fly down a dirt road, ha ha)


http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=700+4294925130+400885+115+4294848363

Offline dodge freak 2

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 825
Re: Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2009 - 09:50:28 AM »
This looks like it could work...I just went and order 2 or 3 I thought could work and kept the one that seem to fit best and have the most adjustment.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SPS%2D92043&N=700+4294925130+400885+4294848363+115&autoview=sku

Yeah, 'race only" BS..its just a sticker that comes right off.


Offline widing'cuda

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 586
  • 70 'cuda383 - BS23N0E
    • w i d i n g ' c u d a
Re: Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2009 - 01:20:07 PM »
Ok, this makes me feel much better. I had a mechanic install my a-arms. Just so I would not mess it up.

- Jørgen - Norwegian Mopar fanatic

1970 Plymouth 'Cuda 383 A833 8-3/4 3.23 suregrip
http://cuda.widing.biz/

Offline Kapteenikosmos

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 471
Re: Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2009 - 02:06:06 PM »
I did mechanical engineering as a minor during my master of science studies, so according to those teachings I have a butt feeling that the tubular arms does not have a very big advantage if none over the original a-arms without heavy rust. I don't have tubular arms so I base my feelings on the pics I've seen about those. The tubular arms seem bit small in diameter and because the ability to withstand bending strength is mainly a function of the cross sectional area and more accurately the radius (or height) of the metal from the neutral axis. I haven't  studied the shape of the original ones very closely but it really isn't that bad construction. The materials used in tubular arms are probably stronger but as as said by the 72bluNblu the welds could be problematic. The actual weld is much stronger than the base material but the grain structure at the transition zone (where weld meets base metal) is poor and prone to cracking.

I'm still contemplating if I should buy tubular arms for myself or just use the original ones. If I have spare time I could play around with some fem-software and calculate somekind of estimated strength values for both arms.
Ville

1967 six banger Mustang
1973 Challenger (under restoration)
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC (daily driver)

Offline 72hemi

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4812
  • MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2006
Re: Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2009 - 02:44:52 PM »
I plan on going with the Firm Feel tubular a arms, mostly to reduce weight on the front end and to increase the built in positive caster from 1 degree to 4 degrees.
1972 Dodge Challenger 340 6 Pack 4-speed
1996 Dodge Viper GTS Coupe

Offline 72bluNblu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
Re: Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2009 - 06:42:34 PM »
Without running a full stress strain analysis on a set of tubular a-arms I'm going to have a hard time backing this up, but my degree is in aerospace engineering and I have successfully designed, constructed, and raced using tubular a-arms. Provided someone looked at some equations when they picked the tube wall thickness, they're substantially stronger than stock. Even if they didn't, as long as they didn't use paper thin tubing, they're stronger. In fact, if they just picked a standard tubing diameter, its likely they're several times stronger than they have to be. When the design team I was on ran the equations for the tubular arms we built I found that to meet the strength requirements we needed we could use tubing that was literally too thin to weld to the threaded ends we were using. Granted, it was for a much lighter vehicle, but I actually had to tell them that I wouldn't be able to TIG weld the design spec thickness to the solid rod ends, the tubing we ended up using was twice as strong as it needed to be.

The stock a-arms are prone to flexing and cracking, and I have seen it. Typically welds do not break before the tubing they join bends, but this depends on a lot of things. For one, if the tubing used was thicker than it needed to be (someone overbuilt, actually pretty likely), then the bending load for the tubing might be higher than it is for the butt weld that joins the tube to the ball joint retainer, especially since the length of the tubular arm is quite short from an engineering standpoint. Weld strength is also based on the size of the weld, both thickness and length, and the welds on the a-arms are relatively small, CAP's particular design using a butt weld is not the strongest. And of course a cold weld would also cause major problems. Loading conditions and the accident involving the RR are obviously a unique situation. Also note, despite the tubing being relatively small in diameter, the tubing itself does not appear to be deformed at all in that particular instance.

The factory did the cheapest thing they could to meet the minimum standards they came up with, and that was 40 years ago. The factory was looking at bottom dollar, period, and on top of that they really do have an equation balancing lawsuits to production costs. I wouldn't bet on them. You need to look no further than any type of autoracing to see which design is stronger and lighter. It would be exceedingly simple, for example, for F1 cars to use a single form carbon fiber arm that looked like one of our stockers. It would require a single mold, could be produced without any seams, and would be really simple to make and produce. But they use a tubular design. Why? Stronger, lighter, and for the instance of F1, more aerodynamic. I'm not aware of any aftermarket stamped steel a-arms, all are the tubular design. This definitely isn't for ease of construction, a stamped arm requires a machine to be set up a single time, after which you could run hundreds of items. Tubular arms require someone to set up a jig and weld every single time.

Take a look at the construction of your tubular a-arms before you buy them. I was lulled a little bit by the fact that the CAP arms look pretty much like all the other ones out there, but having them in hand now there are a few simple things they could have done to make them stronger, I notice now that a lot of the other arms have some type of gusset joining the tubular arms to each other and the ball joint retainer. If you have CAP arms, take a look at the welds. If they look good, you shouldn't have any issues. If you don't like the way the welds look, start saving up for a new set of arms, or take action to improve on the weld. If you want to run your stock a-arms feel free, but don't think for a second that your stock arms can't/won't fail just because they're "stock".

Offline dodge freak 2

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 825
Re: Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2009 - 09:33:30 PM »
I tell you guys, check out a late model Vette...it looks like a toy...yes its only 3,000 lbs or so now but its still design to carry two grown adults weighting 250 lbs each.

My dads Buick is load with aluminum control arms...the Vette has tubes..not even sure if they are steel.

The frame is so weak that the Z cars with the bigger motor uses a different frame. 

Offline Aracer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 452

Offline cudagirl4406pk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1620
  • Yes i am a Girl and No you cant drive my CUDA
    • Garageartmusclecars
Re: Tubular upper control arms, are they as safe as stock?
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2009 - 01:25:43 PM »
Has anyone used there complete front end they sell for 3 grand?
Yes i am a girl and no you cant drive my MOPAR :)