Help with description of my 440

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    Author Topic: Help with description of my 440  (Read 938 times)

    Offline tommyg29

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    Help with description of my 440
    « on: July 09, 2009 - 04:24:55 PM »
    I found an old written description of my 440 6 pack engine when it was rebuilt 5 years ago. It has 3,000 miles on it since then.
    "The engine is an hp block 72 dated rebuilt with a steel crank. pistons are 30 over. Used short 30 over flat tops .060 down in the hole"
    What exactly does .060 down in the hole mean? Does that mean the bore is uneven?
    And does this mean it has a forged crank? Is that better than a cast crank, which I understand to be the stock type?
    And what is a 5 angle valve job?
    Thanks for any input. Just trying to understand what I have to start with here. The engine seems to run fine, and the 6 pack seems to be adjusted well, for now. But the more I know what I have the better decisions I can make later.
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    Offline Chryco Psycho

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #1 on: July 09, 2009 - 05:32:24 PM »
    Stock cranks were either cast or forged , forged is best
    .060 below deck or down the hole means the piston is not flush with the deck reducing the compression
     5 angle gvalve job just blends the seat better for more flow
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    Offline NoMope Greg

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009 - 06:13:59 PM »
    To expand a little, a forged crank is also referred to as a steel crankshaft and is formed by taking bar stock and applying heat and pressure to form it into the shape of a crankshaft.    Cast cranks are formed by taking molten metal and pouring it into a mold and letting it cool, just as you would do with an engine block or heads.  Forged tends to be much stronger than cast.  Cast cranks are generally fitted stock to lower-performance engines because they're cheaper to make and the demands on them are relatively low.  You'll see them a lot in /6's, 318s and engines originally built for family sedan service.  High performance engines are almost all forged, as were many truck/RV engines and most four-speed cars.

    As CP said, .060 down in the hole just means the piston is set up to be not quite flush with the top of the block when it's at top-dead center.  It will sit .060" (approximately 1/16") below the deck surface when the piston is at TDC.  The description of short pistons could mean that it's either a short compression height piston (consistent with it being .060 in the hole) or it could have a short skirt.  Also, as CP said, with the piston in the hole, compression ratio will be reduced.  How much depends on other factors, such as the heads that are on it, is it a stock stroke crank (probably), etc.
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    Offline tommyg29

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009 - 06:52:15 PM »
    I have no idea about the compression, and wouldnt know how to measure it, but I also found this description.
    It dynos at 400rwhp and 500 torque, and has a "fresh set of closed chambers, but not the good ones, bigger valves and ported by moper. Double roller chain 3 bolt. Cam is under .550 its .520 on the exhaust side iirc. It has a factory iron intake, and stock rockers and pushrods."

    Quote is from the prior owner.
    And I guess technically at 030 over its more like 445 cubic inches.
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    Offline Chryco Psycho

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009 - 10:56:24 PM »
    so it should have the 516 casting heads on it
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    Offline NoMope Greg

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #5 on: July 10, 2009 - 01:36:51 AM »
    Quote from: tommyg29 on July 09, 2009 - 06:52:15 PM
    I have no idea about the compression, and wouldnt know how to measure it, but I also found this description.
    It dynos at 400rwhp and 500 torque, and has a "fresh set of closed chambers, but not the good ones, bigger valves and ported by moper. Double roller chain 3 bolt. Cam is under .550 its .520 on the exhaust side iirc. It has a factory iron intake, and stock rockers and pushrods."

    Quote is from the prior owner.
    And I guess technically at 030 over its more like 445 cubic inches.

    Does it say it's ported by "moper" or "Mopar?"  "moper" is a member here who builds engines - pretty good ones, from what I understand.  I believe he lives in Connecticut.
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    Offline tommyg29

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #6 on: July 10, 2009 - 01:34:28 PM »
    I dont know who moper is, but that is what it says. It was done about 5 or 6 years ago, and the car is from central Connecticut, and its on its way to me via closed carrier to Florida.
    Thanks.
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    Offline tommyg29

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #7 on: July 10, 2009 - 01:50:39 PM »
    I'll look up "516 casting heads" and see what I find. This site is great. I'm trying to edumacate myself, and you guys are fantastic. Thank you.
    As for compression, I understand if the combustion chamber is increased in size, that would lower compression. Does the ratio, for example 10 to 1, mean that the volume at tdc is 1/10th the full volume. In other words if each cylinder is 55 cubic inches (440/8), and I know the compression is 10 to 1, is the tdc volume then 5.5 cubic inches? If so, with a flush piston top obviously all 5.5 cubes are within the head itself, whether it's dome shaped or whatever. Which leads me to a question of the size and shape of that volume, which is, other than stroke and bore, a very important variable, and obviously it is that little volume and shape that is the subject of lots of bragging rights throughout the years.
    Since it is a closed chamber head, I have heard those are not as efficient as open chambered, but I guess it depends on the application. I dont understand the difference between the two, but thats the type of thing that probably needs to be seen to understand. Reading about this stuff is not the same!
    Thanks.
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    ...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

    Offline FJ5_440

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #8 on: July 10, 2009 - 01:53:19 PM »
    Moper is from that area.  I sent him a PM alerting him to this thread.  Maybe he knows more about the car.
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    Offline tommyg29

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009 - 03:34:14 PM »
    great...thanks!
    though I doubt he would remember this particular car. Sean, the guy I just bought it from is in Carlisle right now. He bought the car about 8 or 9 years ago from a high school buddy I believe, and he spent the first few years "restoring" it as a 440-6 clone
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    Offline moper

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #10 on: July 13, 2009 - 08:45:55 AM »
    That would be my high school car and my very first personally owned Mopar, yes. I bought it one month after my 16th birthday. Any questions you have I'd be happy to answer. In fact, should you ever want to sell it (yeah, I know, you may not have even seen it yet...lol) I'd love to be contacted. I couldn't afford it when it was for sale the other times but one never knows.

    On the engine.. The shortblock was purchased by the guy who just you sold the car. He's a friend of mine. It had been rebuilt but not by anyone with an eye for performance. so the pistons are way down in the bores and the 516 heads were milled a lot to get back compression. Cam is the Crane H302-2 hydraulic... .518/308° intake .528/318° exh. I did the top end and some other work over the years on it. I recall it made over 400hp to the tire and over 500 pound feet at like 2800 rpm. Contact me via PM if that's easier for you.
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    Offline tommyg29

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #11 on: July 13, 2009 - 12:17:10 PM »
    Great to reach you moper!
    if I remember correct Sean said he bought it from a guy who had it in high school, but he didnt get specific. The car is arriving at my home tonight, and I did see the car and test drove it a few weeks ago.
    Cant wait to have it in my garage.
    Been looking for a cuda I can drive for about 20 months, ever since I got the bug at the 2007 turkey rod run at Daytona. About 4,000 to 5,000 cars there each year. Great show. As you can imagine, Ive looked at lots of cars, and the way Sean had his optioned out was almost exactly what I had in mind.
    I wasnt looking for anything highly modded. Want a driver that is fairly reliable and only lightly modded, but only time will tell how reliable it is, and yes, I know I'm probably buying more trouble with the 6 pack setup, but I couldnt resist. I will learn what it takes to keep them tuned. How hard can it be.
    And thanks for the info. I will definitely be asking some questions. Real soon I will be taking the car to my nephews shop. He works mostly on ricers, and late model german stuff. He admittedly knows nothing about old school classics, but I want him to install a gps anti-theft tracker (I live in the car theft capital) and put it on his inertia dyno.
    Heres a link to his NSCRA winning 9 second run in his S4 Audi. Supposedly the fastest in the world.

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    72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
    71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
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    12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

    Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

    ...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

    Offline moper

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #12 on: July 16, 2009 - 11:49:00 AM »
    That would be me, yes. I'm sure you'll have questions. That car for Sean was a long term work in progress. He'd drive it a  bit, then park it for months. I dont think it was out more than once or twice this year. Personally, that's a lot of car for a daily driver/cruiser. My knee couldn't hold up to that clutch. It's also been in Hemmings Muscle Machines magzine in a drag racing spread they did. That and what used to be my 70 side by side with Sean and I driving. Many stories from my time with that car. Did he tell you it's a Deputy that was gold top on gold? I can't imagine how ugly that was...lol. It was gold w/blk top when I had it.
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    Offline tommyg29

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    Re: Help with description of my 440
    « Reply #13 on: July 16, 2009 - 12:58:24 PM »
    yeah, I checked all the codes on it. Gold (tunisian tan?) on gold. Sean didnt seem too interested in that stuff.
    But it wont be a daily driver. Only intend to take it for a drive once a week or so.
    He says the car was very clean, with not too much rust, replaced the trunk pan and one of the floors I think. Not sure what else under the car. He also said it had virtually no rust on the firewall, and he spent from about late 2000 to mid 2003 putting it together. Then, only 3,000 miles on it in 6 years!
    I have what are probably most of his receipts, including one from 12/01 from Custom Design Performance. Is that you? Havent added em all up but its gotta be a LOT, plus he says about $12k in the paint & body.
    Heres a couple pics before I had a chance to really clean it up::
    « Last Edit: July 16, 2009 - 01:04:13 PM by tommyg29 »
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    72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
    71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
    92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
    12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

    Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

    ...the lines on the road just look like dots!....
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