Electric fuel pump location recommendations

[1971Challenger]

Hi,

1972 Dodge Challenger
I am starting my install / conversion from carb to FI system.

here is my original post: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=60554.0

I'm stuck where, though I would get stuck, the install / location of the electric fuel pump. As you know not a whole lot of room back by the tank. I did find one location but I'm not sure if the diff swings up in this location to smash my new pump. I attached two pictures. One is of a mystery bracket I'm not sure what went here, any thoughts? The second pic is of the pump that just happens to just fit in said bracket.

I know in addition to the pump I need a fuel filter before (plan to use a mopar 'can' filter), then I have a high pressure 3/8" filter post pump. So I need to find a location for these as well. (I think, I can safely put the big high pressure filter up/in the engine bay, right?)

I know electric pumps are better 'pushers' then pullers, but has anyone ever installed and electric pump closer to the engine than the tank? I think priming my be an issue.

Anyone make a 'short loop'(return-less) fuel loop? where unused fuel goes back to the high pressure side of the line, eliminating the need to run a return line?

Thanks!,
//Tom

[ntstlgl1970]

Mounting the pump lower than the level of the fuel tank is the "best" solution for an external setup to let gravity help the pump work/keep it primed. Do you have a sump or anything in the tank? Running a it dry is about the best way to ruin a FI pump. There is a GM filter with a built in return, I'll have to look around to find it....

[1971Challenger]

Hi ntstlgl1970,

This pump was part of a FI kit, and was used outside of the tank, so I think it will be ok. I understand what your saying though, most electric pumps are cooled by the fuel in the tank. I will try and mount it to some sort of a heat sink though, thanks for that idea. that Goverment Motors filter would be great if you can find it! (I won't tell anyone is a GM part though)  (I'll try hunting via the google internet machine also)

I did hear from the pump manufacturer, they said "If you can mount it within 2-3 feet of the fuel tank it is best. If it has to be mounted further away you could see Driveability issues." So I will look further down line tomorrow.

[moparmaniac59]

I agree with what's been said. You need to install the pump lower than the tank level. I have a Mallory electric fuel pump setup installed on my '68 Barracuda. I used some angle iron and made a bracket just a few inches fwd of the fuel tank with the pump suction about 2" lower than the bottom of the tank. I ran 3/8" braided hose from the pump to a bypass regulator in the engine bay. I had problems with Holley fuel pumps burning up basically because they had no return (supposed to be for extended use) to the tank and failed due to the backpressure with no means for a return. I've not tried the return method you mentioned. It seems the "return" method you mentioned would still not relieve the problem of pump backpressure. Most of these pumps put out 12-14 psi (some even more) whereas the carb will only use maybe 5 to 7 psi, thus creating backpressure on the pump discharge. On my Mallory setup I also ran a braided line back to the tank using a bypass regulator eliminating pump backpressure and boy does it run quiet. Some folks use the tank vent as a means to return unused fuel to the tank. I chose to install a 12 gallon fuel cell and only lost 4 gallons from the original tank capacity. A filter installed D/S of your regulator is fine. I would also consider using a fuel pump relay; it will help offset voltage/amperage fluctuations which can also cause premature pump failure. I learned all this the hard way and could write a page or two about my dealings with Holley on their Holley Blue electric fuel pump. Good luck!!

                                               Matt B.

[moper]

I would look for the right frame rail, on the inner surface just ahead of the torque box. Below the tank is a must, and although it's about a 4' length that position isn't hard for the fuel to get to.

[ntstlgl1970]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Corvette-99-04-Fuel-Filter-Wix-33737_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116QQhashZitem3ee67be24eQQitemZ270154850894QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

I would research your setup to make sure it can compensate for the constant 58psi regulated pressure. Most aftermarket systems are mapped to work with a reference (manifold vacuum) regulator. This filter eliminates that feature. If you google 2002 corvette fuel filter there is some reference info.

Looking back at your original post, I would not run the returnless setup with the kit you have unless you are comfortable doing major software tuning updates. Use your existing fuel line as a supply side to the injectors, then reuse the vapor line (you have this on your 72 right?) as the return back to the tank. Make sure to upgrade any rubber hose with FI spec hose and FI spec clamps (this is important). You can get the hose at any parts store, the clamps should be available too - do NOT use normal worm clamps like you would use for a radiator or heater hose

[Aracer]

     "One is of a mystery bracket I'm not sure what went here, any thoughts? "

     The brackets hold the 1973,4 vapor separator. 

[1971Challenger]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all your help! you guys have been great! Well after all your help, me running around getting line, clamps, hose, etc, I went to test fit the setup and its just 1/4" to tall!  So, I'm not sure what I'm going to do now. I know I can put a lower rise intake on, but I like the M1 Intake. I was thinking of shaving 1/4" off the hat rise bottom, but not sure I want to do that either. Bummer man! anyone want to buy a nice FI setup? 

 here are the two pics that show the TB setup and the just a smidge to tall air hat. (and resulting hood bulge, I took it off, and its ok now)

[dodge freak 2]

What is the black thing on top called / seems like you could easily cut that down over an 1 inch were it sits on the F.I. unit.

[ntstlgl1970]

see if a stock 4 bbl air cleaner fits on it, if so check ebay for another hat from a blower or turbo setup, that one is really tall. There are lots of "hats" out there, it doesn't matter whose you use. I hope you didn't spend a bunch of money on this setup.

[ShelbyDogg]

How much do you want for it?

I could tell you where I mount my fuel injection pump and my two filters but then you might not sell me your Throttle body.  I also have a stock solution for your tall air cleaner thingy.

[1971Challenger]

Hey Guys,

Dodge Freak 2: that black thing is called a "air hat" or sometimes called a carb hat or air hat plenum. I routes all the air the carb want to draw in through the one opening you see. This connectes to a air tube, then a MAF Mass Air Flow senor that feeds info to the computer.

ntstlgl1970: thats a good idea, I'm sure it will fit (but I will try) as the TB unit is shorter than my carb, but that air hat is much taller than my low profile air cleaner. I went poking around ebay, your right, I will try and grab one on the cheap just to see if this whole setup works. I might cut it down, just don't want to hack it, if I'm gonna try and resell it..

ShelbyDogg: Well, if I can't get it to fit, I will let you know. I have about $450 into it now. For the setup, and extras like a HP fuel gauge (system runs on 39psi, or 60psi w/different injectors), clamps, hard line, etc... You mentioned you have a stock solution for my air hat? (that black thing is not an air cleaner, the air cleaner is down stream of this setup)

moper: Thanks! perfect spot, just past the limit, but I think it will be ok. This is where I hope to mount the pump if I can get my air hat clearance sorted out.

[ShelbyDogg]

ShelbyDogg: Well, if I can't get it to fit, I will let you know. You mentioned you have a stock solution for my air hat? (that black thing is not an air cleaner, the air cleaner is down stream of this setup)

I really don't need your setup as I have 4 fuel injection setups now.
Here is what I do:
Take off your right rear tire. see the fuel lines going down the frame rail? I bend up a 3/8 brake line to run next to the old 5/16 fuel line, all the way from the sending unit, then attach my pre-filter and pump right there on the diagonal rail.  Then continue up with 3/8 hard line all the way up to the firewall where I have the high pressure filter mounted right behind the throttle body. I bend the old 5/16 line up away from the old pump and around the heater blower motor, so it is right next to the new line. Now you have your feed and return line right there.  I buy the new 3/8 pickup, but that 1/4 return line is too small. I cut it out, drill the hole to 5/16 then solder or braze a 5/16 piece of brake line in to be my new return line. I'll have to get you some pics. If your pump goes out, you take off your tire and change it.

The stock solution to your air elbow would be to get one off of a dodge truck with a magnum motor in it. They have that funny intake that looks like a blower with a tiny throttle body on top. see if you can get one of those then open up the hole to fit your 4bbl . then you can attach it to your downstream MAF and air cleaner. Another solution is to run a TA hood. I had one and hid a 2"spacer and 14" diam,3"tall air cleaner in that scoop.

[moper]

That hat can be milled either o the bottom, ot take off those fins fromm the top. Also keep in mind, the engine torques up about 1/2" so you want some clearance there...

[ShelbyDogg]

Here is my fuel pump, pre filter and high pressure filter. I should have left the original line alone but I cut it then had to reconnect it with that rubber hose. Everything is easy to get to or change.