High horsepower small block

Author Topic: High horsepower small block  (Read 16602 times)

Offline Street_Challenged73

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8826
  • '73 FC-7 Challenger..Member since October 20, 2002
    • My '73 Challenger Restoration Page
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2009 - 07:59:53 AM »
That is crazy you got an E.T. like that with several issues! :faint: That will pull some very nice times once you get the kinks worked out! :2thumbs:
1973 Dodge Challenger......................The ongoing project. (00/----\00)
1991 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo....The sunny day cruiser (RTBoost)
1990 Toyota Celica GT Liftback...........The new daily & winter driver.
All-American Muscle: 'Cudas and Challengers...Still the Elite and always will be.

                                                                                             
                 
Street_Challenged73 from Wisconsin




Offline Ck[FIN]

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 187
  • Get real - Get Mopar
    • Small car club from Finland
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2009 - 05:09:34 PM »
Its not crazy, its MOPAR power!  :icon16:
Get real - Get Mopar

Offline Ck[FIN]

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 187
  • Get real - Get Mopar
    • Small car club from Finland
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2009 - 03:24:08 PM »
New updates:
Few runs at this weekend at our Kamasa Tools Nationals, i still had issues with my msd and converter. I had 8200rpm (still 1000 to go) and crappy start. Only 1.65s/60ft and best ET was 10.46s/135mph. My problem is the 9" converter and 4500 stall. Engine has no power under 5000rpm and first 330feet is very slow.
I have a little break now (6weeks) before next race. Before that i am going to get new msd7al and 8" converter and i am sure i will go under 10s.
 :bananasmi

I can post a video of the run this week if someone is interested.  :popcorn:
Get real - Get Mopar

Offline BarracudaDave

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 136
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2009 - 07:19:17 PM »
Yes, we are interested!    :ylsuper:

Offline Ck[FIN]

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 187
  • Get real - Get Mopar
    • Small car club from Finland
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2009 - 03:35:17 AM »
I didnt find my best run so far but it is 10.40s with still several issues.
Here is test runs with no transbrake, terrible converter and old crappy msd box that gave me only 8000rpm.
Speed is kph not mph.  216kph is about 134mph.



Well, i have my last race in 2 weeks, i am going to change gear ratio to 4.86 so it can really jump from the starting line. I also broke few pushrods (ordered new pushrods from manton) and exhaust rocker, i ordered a new one from harland sharp so i think now i am really going to make a lot better record.
If everything else goes like planned.  :)
Me and 2 of my friends are building this car and its not really so easy. Everything costs million dollars here in finland and its really hard work to get everything made in time. Lots of stuff has to be made by own hands and its really rewarding if it works in the track.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2009 - 03:38:26 AM by Ck[FIN] »
Get real - Get Mopar

Offline Ck[FIN]

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 187
  • Get real - Get Mopar
    • Small car club from Finland
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2009 - 05:26:36 PM »
I found another run from the video camera, check it out.  :popcorn:

Get real - Get Mopar

Offline Ck[FIN]

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 187
  • Get real - Get Mopar
    • Small car club from Finland
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2009 - 04:09:20 PM »
I had last race few days ago and finally the car started to go faster. I didnt get to 9`s this year but it was close. I am not disappointed because engine is in one piece. I broke 2 rocker arms and pushrods but managed to find 2 old harland sharp rockers from my "old crappy spareparts" box.
I think i would go high 9`s if a had higher stall speed. Now i have 5800stall and its too low, 1.56s/60ft.

Best run from this summer. 10.05s/137.8mph
Not bad for a N/A small block and 727 trans?

Check it out


Get real - Get Mopar

Offline Street_Challenged73

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8826
  • '73 FC-7 Challenger..Member since October 20, 2002
    • My '73 Challenger Restoration Page
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2009 - 01:20:23 AM »
That is one quick car, especially since it's still powered by a n/a small block!! :faint:  I'd say you're doing really well with the tuning and should have it into the 9's very shortly. :cheers: :2thumbs:
1973 Dodge Challenger......................The ongoing project. (00/----\00)
1991 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo....The sunny day cruiser (RTBoost)
1990 Toyota Celica GT Liftback...........The new daily & winter driver.
All-American Muscle: 'Cudas and Challengers...Still the Elite and always will be.

                                                                                             
                 
Street_Challenged73 from Wisconsin

Offline Ck[FIN]

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 187
  • Get real - Get Mopar
    • Small car club from Finland
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2011 - 04:02:04 PM »
Long time no see, finally last weekend i managed to run 9,95s /138mph with my NA small block.

I have video from it in the camera but its not in the computer yet. This is video from 10.0 and 10.1s run, INCAR.

1#


2#


 :feedback:

Get real - Get Mopar

Offline dutch

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 6944
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2011 - 05:04:10 PM »
wicked....  :bananasmi     :cheers:
*** Bart ***

Offline jimynick

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4512
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2011 - 05:14:30 PM »
Banzai! That thing sounds fabulous. I can't imagine turning it ANOTHER 1000 rpm! Now where was that Chevy? :thumbsup:

Offline femtnmax

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 997
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2011 - 11:12:26 PM »
Great videos, thanks for posting.
You asked for some feedback…so can I ask a question?   The intake ports look large…I’m sure they flow great on the flow bench, but were they sized for your engine combo??

From the Speedtalk forum:
#1.  Port velocity is the key.  Want smaller, faster, more efficient.  The biggest mistake is porting too big.
You know what peak torque rpm your cam, etc wants.  Equation for determining the intake port cross section area is:
Port area in inches = (peak torque rpm X volume one cylinder in cubic inches) divided by 88,200

#2.  Another way to look at it is to ask the question…is the intake port velocity too high (robbing power) or is it too low meaning engine power range and torque spread are less than optimum.  The maximum air speed in the port should be 0.55 mach at sea level, which is 660-720 feet per second depending on how its measured.   The equation is:
Port velocity = (0.00353 X RPM X stroke X Bore squared) divided by intake port cross section area.   
All measurements in inches.  The port area can be the minimum area or average area depending on what you choose to look at.  RPM is the peak rpm the engine will see.

Using #2 above, if your port cross section is too large, the port velocity will be too low and you will be leaving performance “on the table”.

Some past history:
When Ford first produced the 302/351 with those big intake ports…racers in England told them the ports looked too big.  The racers proceeded to reduce the port cross section and the engine performance improved.
When Ford had the high riser intake ports for the early 427 with tall (large cross section) ports they found extra performance by reducing the height (cross section) of the port on the Lemans 427.
Chevy big block with large rectangular intake ports performed better when combined with an oval port intake manifold with smaller cross-section.  The Ford 351 with stock cylinder heads also produces better performance when a Edel RPM intake manifold (small port cross section) is used.  They say the small intake manifold ports work as a band-aid to help improve intake runner velocity when combined with too-large a cylinder head port.

I’m not pointing fingers…just putting some questions out there.

Phil

Offline Ck[FIN]

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 187
  • Get real - Get Mopar
    • Small car club from Finland
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2011 - 03:50:16 AM »
Great videos, thanks for posting.
You asked for some feedback…so can I ask a question?   The intake ports look large…I’m sure they flow great on the flow bench, but were they sized for your engine combo??

From the Speedtalk forum:
#1.  Port velocity is the key.  Want smaller, faster, more efficient.  The biggest mistake is porting too big.
You know what peak torque rpm your cam, etc wants.  Equation for determining the intake port cross section area is:
Port area in inches = (peak torque rpm X volume one cylinder in cubic inches) divided by 88,200

#2.  Another way to look at it is to ask the question…is the intake port velocity too high (robbing power) or is it too low meaning engine power range and torque spread are less than optimum.  The maximum air speed in the port should be 0.55 mach at sea level, which is 660-720 feet per second depending on how its measured.   The equation is:
Port velocity = (0.00353 X RPM X stroke X Bore squared) divided by intake port cross section area.   
All measurements in inches.  The port area can be the minimum area or average area depending on what you choose to look at.  RPM is the peak rpm the engine will see.

Using #2 above, if your port cross section is too large, the port velocity will be too low and you will be leaving performance “on the table”.

Some past history:
When Ford first produced the 302/351 with those big intake ports…racers in England told them the ports looked too big.  The racers proceeded to reduce the port cross section and the engine performance improved.
When Ford had the high riser intake ports for the early 427 with tall (large cross section) ports they found extra performance by reducing the height (cross section) of the port on the Lemans 427.
Chevy big block with large rectangular intake ports performed better when combined with an oval port intake manifold with smaller cross-section.  The Ford 351 with stock cylinder heads also produces better performance when a Edel RPM intake manifold (small port cross section) is used.  They say the small intake manifold ports work as a band-aid to help improve intake runner velocity when combined with too-large a cylinder head port.

I’m not pointing fingers…just putting some questions out there.

BIg thanks for the feedback. I made some calls and few new things that i found out. Heads are made from batten W2 alum heads in LATE 80`s!! So really not so new hitech. Ports are huge for a small block as you said and could be too big because they didnt know all tricks in 80`s?. I believe that the 1.68" exh valve is also too big for todays high power small block. The heads are made for this engine and it revs to 9100rpm easily. I may lose some low end torque with this head/cam combo but last owner has run 9,6s with this engine in a lighter valiant. I have changed new TD rockers last winter and they are same ratio as old ones. I am using 6500stall converter and i think it could be even higher a little bit.

Also the camshaft is 15 years old, todays new ramp profiles could make more power in this kind of engine?? Its not even an custom camshaft.
Get real - Get Mopar

Offline femtnmax

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 997
Re: High horsepower small block
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2011 - 09:37:59 PM »
yes, swapping heads would be an expensive experiment.  You could size the intake port cross section with the formulas I mentioned in previous post...then if there is a big change in cross section you could make a new intake manifold with the new cross section...and give it a try.   As mentioned, this 'bandaid' fix might offer improvements without replacing the heads... positive results would tell you which way to go for future head purchases.

Also the camshaft is 15 years old, todays new ramp profiles could make more power in this kind of engine?? Its not even an custom camshaft.
As you say, consider researching modern cam profiles.  Call Lunati tech, or email them...see what they recommend.  The faster rate of valve opening will of course be harder on your valve train parts.  Consider switching to beehive springs with the corresponding smaller valve sprinig retainers.  Smokey Yunick said to reduce the weight on the valve side of the rocker arm...the rocker arm and pushrod/lifters don't make so much difference...of course that was before roller cams with those heavy lifters.

I believe Speedtalk forum said want intake valve diameter 52% of cylinder bore diameter, and remainder can fit whatever maximum exhaust valve will work.  There are also simple formulas for sizing the intake and exhaust port throat area just below the valve seat as a ratio of the valve diameter.   With the throat sized, then the intake port minimum cross section and short turn cross section can be sized.   They said doing this helps put off or stop intake port stalling as rpm increases.
Did you unshroud the valves by opening up the combustion chamber to .05-0.10 inch less than the head gasket bore diameter???  Did you put a 30 degree back cut on the intake valve to help flow past the valve head??   Did you take the exhaust valve margin (parallel to valve stem) and turn it into a radius toward the combustion chamber side of the valve to reduce heat build up of the right angle corners of the valve that are exposed to combustion chamber heat?  Are you using rubber umbrella exhaust valve seals...or no seal at all would be fine.   Heat transfer from the exh valve stem into the guide is one of the primary methods to remove heat from the valve.   If you can avoid detonation that will go along way toward keeping the bottom end together of course.
How about exhaust header collector length...have you experimented with trying different lengths?

Your seems to leave the line smoothly...they say that is the best way to leave the line...nice and smooth.  Could you make your own fiberglass front end fenders, hood, and bumper?   How about plexiglass door and rear quarter glass to save weight similar to the superstock darts from the factory.  I assume your battery is in the trunk, and extra big for more weight over the rear tires...
Great looking classic Mopar by the way.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011 - 09:48:07 PM by femtnmax »
Phil