mini starter

[jordan]

I took the advice gleaned from this topic and bought a stock mopar mini starter from the local starter and alternator shop.  I have a stroker 440 with 11:1 compression.  I have a large voltage drop on the initial start up.  This drops the voltage to my Rev-n-nator ignition, and shuts down the ignition preventing a start.  I have 450 amps at the starter, and 10 volts of power.  My battery is in the trunk.  I believe this is acceptable power to the starter.  Once I turn the key, it drops to 5-7 volts, and less when its hot.  So if I have enough power at the starter, and it drops its volts, I am assuming my starter is not strong enough to turn my high compression stroker.  What recommendations for starters does anybody have?  I see power master makes a starter with 250 ft/lbs and 2.5kw vs the stock 200 ft/lbs and 1.4kw.  Does any body have a good idea for me?  I am going to call Mancini racing for their advice too.   Thanks.  J

[jhaag]

10 volts at the starter is not enough. should be full battery voltage around 12.5 to 13. I would first look at the battery and then the cables. what size cables? where is your battery grounded?

[jordan]

My bad.  Let me clarify.  I have full voltage 12.5 to the starter, and 10 to 10.5 volts under full crank.  That is acceptable under full load, correct?  Battery is in the trunk. Large ga welding cable.  Grounded to the frame rail in front of the trans cross member.  I have a engine ground strap to the frame too.  New AGM resto look battery.  The battery has been tested, and we even tried two other new batteries with worse results.  So my battery appears good.
     I did more research.  I have a stock mini starter.  I don't know exactly which one it is.  It appears that chrysler starters come in 160 and 180 ft/lbs of torque ratings.  I wonder if I have a little wimpy starter.  I didn't know at the time there were differences.  I have TTi headers, and they recommend the Powermaster starter 9523 with 200ft/lbs.  I see other starters that are rated at 220 and 250 ft/lbs and up to 3.5 hp.  Do I need something that big, or will the 200 rating be enough?  I don't want to keep doing this.  The voltage drop prevents me from running the ignition I want to, which leads to not getting my timing set up correctly, and that leads to my starting and idling tuning issues.  It just keeps snowballing.  I need to get it right, so I can get my car kick ass, and not just a runner.   I want to do some racing next year, and I am sure I am not getting all my HP with crappy timing and a stock ignition.  All because of a weak starter! 

[jordan]

Just a little update on my starter drama.  I am on my third starter.  Got a power master 9523 200 ftlbs.  High crank and clockable which is nice to get the leads away from the block.  After a lot of testing, and retesting while hot, we determined that my 2 ga. cables are not enough to be efficient to crank over my stroker from the trunk.  We ended up doubling the pos and neg cables to the pos side, and regrounding the battery and block.  It started much more efficiently while hot.  So now I am buying 1-0 ga. cable and starting over.  Hopefully with better results.  That seems like a massive cable to me, but so far it is the only thing that changes the way it starts and without much voltage drop.  I changed the gas octane to prevent detonation, and I changed the battery placement to the engine compartment for a quick test.  It was better, but I don't want it up there for multiple reasons.  I am really hoping this works since the cable is so expensive, and I need to sort out the ignition and timing better with my digital ignition.  Hopefully soon I can have all my electrical bugs worked out this winter and just get down to the fun stuff of tuning the suspension in next summer. 

[Topcat]

So many owners swear by these mini starters:

Issues I've heard are:
Broken snouts,
Didn't last very long.
Snout cracked the hole it goes into bell housing.
Hack job done; split the wiring so the connectors to bolt go on the studs.
Not really any better cranking just smaller if you have headers.

I re built my Hemi starter and it has never shown any issues no matter how hot it gets.
Ths small block OEM starters have the smaller guts. Avoid those if possible. 

[dodj]

Issues I've heard are:
Not really any better cranking just smaller if you have headers.

I bought mine from the local Dodge dealership back in 1998-2000 (can't remember exactly) and it has been trouble free. The biggest thing I notice about it is the cranking speed. Much faster than my original-big-starter.
Perhaps there are a lot of questionable quality small starters out there? Cheap knock-offs of the original small-high torque starter?

[BIGSHCLUNK]

I've been running a DENSO from Dave (member here) @ Roseville on my HEMI............ Cranks faster! NO ISSUES!!!  And its been in for a few years already.....

[jordan]

I got a quote on "battery cable" from the LPS at $5.80-$6.20 per foot for 1-0 cable.  Then called the welding supply store and ending up buying 2-0 ga welding cable for $4.50 per foot.  They crimped the end on and all of it was under a $hundo!  Ill find out tomorrow if it will work.  God I hope so. 

[jordan]

I rebuilt all of my cables tonight with 2-0 ga welders cable.  Ran the pos to the starter from the trunk.  Grounded the battery through the trunk to the frame.  And grounded the engine from a tab in the bell housing to the frame rail next to the starter.  Started up cold very easy.  Got it up to temp, shut it off, and restarted easily with minimal effort at the initial key turn.  I find it hard to believe that #2 wire was too small to work in my setup.  But it had to be since this ultra large cable is what fixed it.  What a relief to have reliable starting with little voltage drop on a hot motor.  Now I can run my Rev-n-nator, and start working on getting my timing accurate at idle and full in.  I do need to put in a new power valve that is a bit smaller so I can have better idle.  I think my vacuum is too low at idle.  Then fix another electrical problem with my heat control and I am set.  Feels good to have a little progress after being stuck for so long.  Next year should be shows and races.