Author Topic: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?  (Read 7031 times)

Offline johns cuda shop

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2014 - 09:33:23 PM »
Yup I agree , I believe that might be the best bet  :bigsmile:
71 Cuda Gen III Aluminum 426 Hemi T56 6 speed 4.10 8.75 Modified & Lowered RMS coilover suspension Wilwood discs




Offline brads70

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2014 - 10:12:58 PM »
2 ways to solve that , you either need a rack with more travel side to side or you need to move the tie rod connection closer to the ball joint centers
:iagree: I had planned on making the steering arms slightly shorter, but the trade off is firmer steering. No free lunch.  :grinno:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline 1 Wild R/T

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2014 - 12:58:44 AM »
This post has no bearing on Brad's plans, it has more to do with my first experience with a car equipped with an Alterkation Suspension.... I can't believe how far off the Ackerman angle is from what it needs to be... Low speed parking lot maneuvers this thing binds till you feel a tire step over to correct it's turning radius.... You can feel it driving the car & when your aware of it you can stand outside the car when someone else is driving & watch the tires wrinkle & step over..... Crazy....
JS27N0B 70 Challenger R/T Convertible  FJ5 Sublime, Show Poodle w/90,000 miles since resto
WS27L8G 68 Coronet R/T Convertible  PP1 Bright Red, Project
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Offline waskier

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2016 - 09:58:21 PM »
Has there been any updates on the RMS steering issues in the last ~18 months?

Offline YellowThumper

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2016 - 01:03:54 PM »
Any and every rack transition has benifits and tradeoffs inherent to its design.
To increase length of travel the rack length must also get longer. This in turn makes the rods that attach to your spindle arm shorter. This in turn increases the bump steer issues. Opposite for the bump steer correction.
Currently doing the rack change over to my early Mustang. This particular setup uses a rack unit based on the Chev J car platform. It has the steeing arm connections located towards the center of the rack. The steering arm lengths are much longer and minimize the bump steer associated with a long travel rack.
Of course as I install this into the Mustang I will be eyeing the possibility of adapting it to Challenger.  An obstacle is front steer vs rear steer on the spindle knuckle.


Mike.
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Nature will take care of the rest.

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2016 - 02:53:05 PM »
this is a big missing part of the puzzle , moving the steering forward has advantages more oilpan & header clearance but you need to have the tie rod curl outside of the ball joints & into the wheel to get the Akerman to work where rear steer  curve inwards from the wheel so some one needs to create a different lower ball joint with the tie rod arm curled the opposite way to move to front steering

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline YellowThumper

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2016 - 04:34:59 PM »
this is a big missing part of the puzzle , moving the steering forward has advantages more oilpan & header clearance but you need to have the tie rod curl outside of the ball joints & into the wheel to get the Akerman to work where rear steer  curve inwards from the wheel so some one needs to create a different lower ball joint with the tie rod arm curled the opposite way to move to front steering

Yup but...
Our lower control arms ar a bolt on piece. I will look to see if they could swap left and right. This would reverse their direction. Or (I have the skill) to Fabricate my own instead.
Hmmm.
Removing the warning labels one at a time.
Nature will take care of the rest.

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2016 - 10:57:03 PM »
No problem reversing the lower ball joint with the tie rod connection in front , but the curve of the arm to the tie rod goes the wrong way so it will steer ok in reverse bit not going forward

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline HP2

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2016 - 11:20:47 AM »
Ackerman is the process of having the inside wheel of a turn at a greater angle than the outside wheel of the turn. This maximizes grip by allowing those tires to track to the differing runout/arc of a turn while the steering wheel is turned a consistent arc.

Ackerman is determined by, looking down on a car from above,  drawing a line from the lower ball joint, through the steering joint on each side until they intersect. These lines should converge right about the rear axle create a large triangle.

If you simply reverse the lower ball joints, that Ackerman triangle now converges ahead of the car, which essentially is anti-ackerman. What this does is reverses the angles so  the inside wheel does not turn in at enough angle and the outside wheel turns at too great an angle. This creates a very unstable and twitchy feel to the car and can make it nearly undrivable.

The only reasonable alternative not to running Ackerman angles is to run zero Ackerman. This is when the ball joint and steering joint lines are straight and inline with each other and do not intersect.  This does introduce additional friction into the inside tire on a turn, but it does not produce the reversed angles that de-stabilize the car. Some competition cars run this arrangement because they aren't as concerned with tire wear and may want the suspension to be a mirror image for parts universalality.

Offline YellowThumper

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2016 - 05:15:05 PM »
Yup understand the Ackerman angle issue.
But... again these are bolt on items. I imagine it would not take much stock removal machining off the mounting faces to "reverse" the initial angle.
Possible combination of arm and spindle faces.

Truth be told that if it doesn't work out we still have a good factory setup. I myself am only looking into it for the added  bay room. It was a PITA fitting my turbo headers and eventually I will be snaking my 3" dp thru there.

Mike
Removing the warning labels one at a time.
Nature will take care of the rest.

Offline YellowThumper

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2016 - 05:17:50 PM »
No problem reversing the lower ball joint with the tie rod connection in front , but the curve of the arm to the tie rod goes the wrong way so it will steer ok in reverse bit not going forward

The rack I will use for comparison mounts to the opposite side of our current arm configuration. When (and if can be done) the steering will be correct.
Removing the warning labels one at a time.
Nature will take care of the rest.

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2016 - 07:19:39 PM »
Diagram

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2016 - 07:24:15 PM »
1 more
 With front steer the angle of the steering arms from the rear diff remains the same so instead of being inside of the ball joint center line the arms ahve to be outside the ball joints to give the akerman angle needed

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Offline brads70

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2016 - 07:33:08 PM »
This describes it pretty good.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/ctrp-0407-ackermann-steering-system/

You can't just flip the steering arms around, it would steer horrible!  When using a front steer rack the steering arms need to be at least straight with the lower ball joint, preferably angled out towards the wheel if you have space. When making mods like this 18" rims give more clearance for what needs to be done.
Here is what I'm doing with my homebuilt k frame with front steer and a rack, Nascar spindles and steering arms I'll modify the tie rod location utilizing the slug feature for the tie rods. I'll machine an insert that moves the location.  I already modified the steering arms to use a screw in ball joint. I was going to post a picture but photobucket seems to be down tonight
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=101599.msg1002138#msg1002138

« Last Edit: April 14, 2016 - 07:35:03 PM by brads70 »
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline waskier

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2016 - 10:22:11 PM »
Brad, WONDERFUL evolution work...      wonderful.