cam question

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Offline WVUFELLA

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cam question
« on: July 27, 2007 - 06:30:21 AM »
ok guys i have a 72 chally  with a 68 440 bored .30 over dome pistons (compression is approx 10.3 /1) mild port and polish  3 angle valve job, 1 7/8 full length headers, 3in magnaflow x pipe exhaust system and a torker 440 intake curenntl  it has a cam with the following spec lift @valve is 486/504 and i called the summit guys last night and he said the duration was 294 The minimum rpm is 3000 and the max is 3500 valve float at 6800. My question of the day is this cam to big for the car.... It will idle decent until you put it in gear then you had to baby the throttle  to keep it running. I dont know how big if any stall converter is in it. I dont plan on running the car at the strip. I want somethin to drive around town to car shows etc.  If this is to big then what should i look to put in it.. as for as lift and duration?????? Also it has a 727 tranny with 3.91 rear thanks guys
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007 - 07:50:04 AM by WVUFELLA »




Offline moper

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Re: cam question
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2007 - 10:24:38 AM »
Do you know the brand or part number of the cam? If you really have 10.3:1, I'd think it wouldnt be that hard to set it up to run decently. But, a recent 440 I tore down has the short dome TRWs in it. They sit .070" down from the deck. So with the felpro blue gasket and open chambers, the true compression was like 9.8:1. So you may not have what you think you have. The pistons aside, have you done a cylinder pressure (basic compression) test? The testers are like $10 at any parts store, and the test is easy. You are looking for readings above 140psi, but below 185psi, with no varience of more than 10% among all eight holes. If you have 110 psi, that would indicate a too large a cam, too low a static ratio, a cam that's installed in the retarded position, or a mechanical problem in that hole (if the others are high).
Another good test  is your idle vaccum level, both in Park, and in gear. (careful on that last one...lol) Lower than 5" and it will take a little tuning, higher than that, you should be able to have it idle fine at 800-900rpm, and again, it should be tuned. Sounds to me like perhaps there may be carb or timing or tuning issues holding you back. Not really the cam.

Offline WVUFELLA

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Re: cam question
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2007 - 10:36:37 AM »
the timing right now is set at 8-10 i believe and i dont know much about carbs so that is nightmare on its own it is a crane cam part number 64x033 it is a discontinued cam he did send me the card with the lift 486/504 and duration is 236,244 which i thought would be a decent size.??? where should my timing be at ??
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007 - 10:39:00 AM by WVUFELLA »

Offline AMXguy

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Re: cam question
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2007 - 06:57:05 PM »
 I have a custom ground cam in my 440 almost excactly the same as your cam. I think it's about perfect, I do have a 4 speed though but with 3.26 gears and I have no problems at or off of idle. I realize it's a different thing with an auto but if you have a stall converter at all I'd think you should be fine. I'm running 15 degrees initial, 36 total with no vac advance. I'll bet you have another problem, carb, timing, ect.
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Offline moper

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Re: cam question
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2007 - 09:50:46 AM »
Well, I cnat find that exact grind. But, it's a 1 step smaller than a Crane I really like. The H302-2. I run that in pumpgas 440 with at least 10:1. And they idle really well. In fact, there is a build with it listed in the proven packages threads. But, tuning it, I think You need some help. It sounds like you're not running enough initial timing.  They like more like 15+, but it amy take a little setting up to be able to run that with your distributor. Because if you just crank it up to 15 or 18°, your total advance may be too high, and it might get into ping and detonation. Is there any local performance shop you could use? It may be easier than trying to do it yourself if you dont think you can do it.

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Re: cam question
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2007 - 09:59:32 AM »
In my buddies crate 360 dart it did the exact same thing....great at idle when you put it in gear you had to pat the gas pedal to keep it running....He didnt have enough converter....

Offline moper

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Re: cam question
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2007 - 10:27:54 AM »
I disagree, but it's not an exact "one size fits all" deal either. If the engine doesnt make enough power at idle, the engine stalls when it's loaded by being placed in gear. When a stall is too low, the car will jolt hard when it's placed in gear, but it wont die. There's always exceptions...but that's how I find things most times. Too low an idle speed, poor carb setup, and poor timing setup will make a ton of issues...lol.

Offline 440Charger

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Re: cam question
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2007 - 11:54:31 PM »
I've had the same problem and carb tuning fixed it along with finding a vacuum leak, and I have a stock converter.  Get your timing up to at least 12 at idle then lean out your mixture screws until your just above the point where leaning it out anymore lowers your idle.  Start it and put it in drive and see how you like it, if it's still stalling out raise your idle speed to around 800-900 if your not there already then try it. 

Adjust your mixture screws from there if needed, richer.  Do 1/4 turns so you can keep track of where your at.

BTW that cam is way too big if you don't have a stall converter...I'm guessing your take off power is disappointing and if not could be a lot better.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007 - 12:08:31 AM by 440Charger »
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Offline WVUFELLA

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Re: cam question
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2007 - 06:35:30 AM »
i havent been able to drive it yet. i changed the brakes from manual to power so i had to get the linkage that goes from the master cylinder rod to the pedal. That should be in this week then i am gonna drive it  some and try those compression test and vacuum test to see where i am at. Does anyone know any members that live in the WV MD VA PA area that know how to tune????

nivvy

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Re: cam question
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2007 - 07:56:56 AM »
My solid roller has a power curve from 3000-6500 and I have a 3200 stall with no issues...but it also has a custom built $1100 dominator as well....

Offline WVUFELLA

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Re: cam question
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2007 - 09:55:31 PM »
ok guys i did a compression check this evening and i had 180 on 6 of the cyclinder 200+/- on the other two. I was gonna try to do a vacuum test on it but i couldnt get it to idle long enough to do it. We tryed to set the tming at 15 but we couldnt get it to idle long enough to check vacuum. Currently it does not hae a tach on it so i dont know what rpm it is running but at one point this evening it was 22 degrees. Also it is running real rich... so rich the garage fills with fumes and it begins to hurt your eyes... what are the adjustments to lean it out some... also is there a fuel pressure i should be checking?? do you think by any chance i am gettin to much fuel pressure???? one more thought when it shuts off and you try to restart it will just turn over and over..... but if you hit the throttle three or four times and let some fual run in the carb then it will fire right off??????? It is a brand new holley 770???? i dont knwo i am lost i think i need a skateboard :bigsmile:

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: cam question
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2007 - 02:12:04 AM »
you need to have 6 PSI fuel pressure , I would set the timing at 2500 + RPM at approx 36 * & if you can get it ot idle adjust the float level right away , longer duration aftermarket cams will make most engines run rich @ idle but clean at RPM
 sounds like it is set to lean already if you have to pump it 3 times to get it restarted when warm

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Offline 440Charger

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Re: cam question
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2007 - 02:35:26 AM »
Neil isn't there a 4 idle screw adjustment that he can use?  I've never had a holley 770.  If his eye's are burning from gas fumes and assuming his garage door isn't closed, wouldn't that mean he's running rich?  I remember when I had my 850 speed demon it was like that outside..
I love my 440...but it's not loving me back...yet

Offline WVUFELLA

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Re: cam question
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2007 - 06:31:57 AM »
If it is running rich now when it is tryin to idle but when it gets to 2500+ it leans out and  then would that be an indication of to big of cam? I dont plan on running it on the strip just street use where i will not be at 2500-3000 very much. If that is the case would the lunati 60302 be the right cam choice for me without causing pinging with the work that has already been done.( the cam that is in it is crane 64x033 486/504 lift 234/244 duration @ 50) Pinging issues means to low of octane right???

Offline moper

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Re: cam question
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2007 - 03:14:55 PM »
Over 185 is detonation area, so you will want to be very areful how you tune it. If you go to a smaller cam, you will have worse detonation issues because this one's one the edge now. IMO, you just need to get things set right, because they dont sound like they are even close. If the thing is sealed up well (no intake leaks) then you should only have to turn the key witht he engine hot to fire it. If you have to pump it, you may have an intake leak. You will smell some raw fuel in the exh at idle. Dont try to tune that out. 4 corner idling is both a godsend and a royal PITA.