452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...

Author Topic: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...  (Read 1826 times)

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2007 - 10:46:07 AM »
on the Mustang dyno I run on here 280-320 HP is Typical RWHP with a 1.6 to gross hp for Most 440s , we are also at 4000' altitiude
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007 - 08:48:55 PM by Chryco Psycho »

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Offline 440Charger

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2007 - 11:31:03 AM »
There's nothing typical about a 340hp (282x 1.2 to convert to crankshaft output) 440 with a cam, intake, carb and the like. That just plains stinks. The fact that it runs and has been driven only means the oil system is working. IMO not much else is. I would say you have bigger issues. I would do a leak down test first off. If the rings are sealing (which i question) then pull the top end and have them done by someone who will do the right job for you. UD is a good cam, and the package isnt bad. I would be expecting to see at least 400hp from it. Keep in mind, that's not even 1hp per cu inch. You're at .77hp/inch now. A stock 318 2bbl made .72/inch. Your valve size has nothing to do wiht low performance. I run 2.14 intakes and 1.81 exh on all my big blocks. Even 383s unless they are getting 516 heads. No loss in low end at all. It's about how the whole thing works together.


I agree and I have not been happy with the performance since day 1.  But I do know that we have a strong bottom end...we took great care in assembling a strong bottom and used quality parts.  That being said, thanks to what I've learned on this forum and my own research, I believe my cam, CR, intake, and heads are mismatched.  I just talked to Chris at Engle today and he said that with the high compression ratio that it has, it requires a bigger cam to relieve the pressure (exhaust I'm assuming).  Or he said lower the compression to 9:1 and get a smaller cam. BTW he was very cool...I'm liken Engle.

My latest thinking is that I need a dual-pattern cam to provide more exhaust lift and a little less intake duration to help prevent the detonation which is the biggest problem.  I found a Voodoo cam that looks perfect: http://www.holley.com/60403LK.asp  I also think the street dom is a good idea to match the cam better.

Does that make sense?

- Doug
I love my 440...but it's not loving me back...yet

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2007 - 08:50:35 PM »
does to me , Engle can grind a K58 [in]/ K60 [ex] for example split grind if needed as well

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Offline moper

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2007 - 10:53:12 AM »
Just re-reading... Your 440 is 9.8:1? Is nthat a result of measurign head volume and doing the math? Or is that the result of reading tha catalog which says "9.5:1 with open chamber heads" and you ran a little thinner head gasket? 230° at .050 isnt that much. You said the cam was installed "straight up". That means you installed the cam and lined up the dots on the timing set? Or it was installed at the recommended center line and that was verified by the degree wheel? The reason I ask those questions is that first, very little you read for published specs by manufacturers are accurate. The typical open chamber head measures out in the 85-91cc range. Or atleast the ones I've done have. Published specs I think are 84-88ccs. If they are bigger, and you do a valve job (sinking the seats slightly to re-use seats) then the volume increases. That's a decrease in compression ratio. Piston catalogues use published specs to come up with thier numbers, and then say "..should be..." as a disclaimer. In most cases, Mopar blocks are taller than blue print height from the factory..By a lot. So the piston designed for a 10.725 deck will be "low in the hole" if the real deck height of yours is 10.750 (I've found worse, but .015 to .020 is the norm). If youre pistons are .025" further than it's supposed to be, you just lost another .5 point. So theoretically, you could have as low as 8.8:1 if your chambers are bigger, and your deck is taller. The only way to know for sure is to measure stuff. If the machinist did that and did what was was asked, you should be fine. But your results are not good, or typical. So something's not right. In terms of importance, machining quality is about 45% of any build. Parts are another 15%. Assembler is the final 40%. Because the assember can catch and have fixed anything not "right". I know guys who seem like they can run 10s with a lawn mower, and I know guys who have the best of everything and cant even seem to get the car down the track. I would start with reveiwing any documnets the machinist and assembler had. You should have everything recorded somewhere if it was checked. If you dont have any. no biggie, but it means you need to pull it and see where things may not be kosher. Have you done a compression test? Do that and post the results. Make sure the engine is warmed up, all plugs are removed, and the throttle is blocked wide open. If it's under 150 psi, check the camshaft with a degree wheel.

Offline todd383

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2007 - 06:38:06 AM »
Your intake manifold is KILLING your upper RPM horsepower, go with the RPM perfprmer,or M1 single plane, and get rid of that cam. And get that fuel pump,(i would get an adjustable regulater) and  3/8 fuel line.

Offline 440Charger

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2007 - 07:23:16 AM »
mopar - it's the latter of the two....we took the specs of the piston vs. head then assumed the gasket thickness would bring us the desired 9.8:1.  Once I pull the car out of storage the first thing I'm doing is a compression test.  It's killing me not knowing the actual pressure.  I think the cam was installed at the "centerline".... it's been 3+ years and I was an engine newbie when we did this.  Yes, we did a valve job. 

todd383 - everyone in this forum AND their mothers have told me to replace this m1 dual-plane lol.  I'm going to grab a Street Dominator single plane and see how that works....once I get this detonation problem fixed....we're hoping the keep the 5/16 lines as they are a pain to install...lost access to a lift...hopefully the hp pump can do the trick.
What's wrong with the cam? 



« Last Edit: January 14, 2007 - 08:05:39 AM by 440Charger »
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Offline moper

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2007 - 10:42:49 AM »
I'll bet you a couple good cheeseburgers and a beer or 6 it's not 9.8:1. :cooldancing: I think it's a machining issue that got past the assembler(s). "stuff" happens. It can be fixed I'm sure.

Offline 440Charger

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2007 - 05:06:31 PM »
Bringing back an old thread here...

Mopar (or anyone), I finally got a compression test done on two cylinders but the method we used wasn't as you suggested.  We pulled one plug at a time, the throttle was not blocked open and the engine was not at operating temp...so that being said, the #1 cylinder was 168 and the #7 was 170..those are the only two we did.  My builder ran the show and we were in a hurry, ect, ect..he mentioned that the pressure might be higher if all plugs were pulled...that true?

So do those #'s still tell you anything? 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007 - 05:12:15 PM by 440Charger »
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Offline moper

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2007 - 12:32:31 PM »
The pressure would be higher. (BTW, my names not Mopar...it's "moper" :bigsmile: We dotn want any trademark lawsuits, now do we?)  I wouldnt say 170 is bad at all. In fact, it's beter than I had anticipated. You should have taken that cheeseburger bet. But, that also tells me that something isnt working. The cylinder pressure indicates that the cylinder is sealing, and that the static compression ratio is decent. A leakdown test (similar, but different gage setup and needs an air compresor) would tell you how well the rings and valve job are working. I'm still looking for a mechanical reason that the numbers would be low. It may be just poor machining too. I would have normally paired that intake with either an RPM or a Street Dominator, depending on you and your habits. Like was said, the M1s a stock intake made of aluminum. But I would think with that cam it should be able to make a bit better number than what you have. Seems weird to me..

Offline 440Charger

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2007 - 01:23:45 PM »
Actually a cheeseburger and a beer sounds good right now.... :droolingbounce:

Hmmm...well if the #'s would be higher if we did it right, that would bring  me closer to 180 which I thought was on the high end for my open chamber iron heads. :dunno:  When you say the #'s could be better, do you mean higher? 


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Offline moper

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2007 - 03:59:10 PM »
Sorry, peak power could be better. 185 is IMO the utmost upper limit for high octane pump unleaded. For me that's 93/94 with 10% ethanol. Add the fact that it's on open chambers means it should be tuned carefully. But, with a cam of 230-240° @ .050 i'd think you bleed enough to make it doable. The cam's on the small side, but it's on the fringe of what I'd consider ok. But, the peak numbers should be higher. If the valves and rings are sealing well, I'd lean towards swapping intakes just to see what happens. If it didnt pick up with that, I'd pull a head and snoop at the machine work quality.

Offline 440Charger

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2007 - 10:39:38 PM »
Ah yes, that dyno run.  Since then I'm upgraded the fuel system and it's much better on the street but I haven't got back to a dyno.  The peak power was around 4700 rpm on the dyno and it felt that way on the street.  Now it pulls hard to 6000rpm so my #'s are probably up.

I'm taking my distributer in to get it recurved so I can stop using 110 octane.  With my cam at 230@.050 I'm thinking 18 degrees initial, and because of the ping at WOT I'm thinking 30-32 total.  I'd like a set of Eddy's but that's not going to happen anytime soon so I have to live with these heads.  I think the tight LSA at 109 peaking too high for these heads...does anyone think that 30-32 total will kill off alot of potential HP?
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Offline moper

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Re: 452 Castings + 2.14 Intake...
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2007 - 09:31:34 AM »
If you get the curve itself right, total timing loss wont be noticed, because the pinging/misfires are eliminated. Also, once a cylinder starts to ping, it will continue to do so and is more prone to do it. It's very difficult to stop it until the load/rpm is reduced. I've found by slowing the advance and stopping the lowest rpm ping, the mid and upper rpms were  fine with the same total timing. Sounds like you're getting in dialed in. Keep working on it.