ESP/Traction Control

[Ross]

What would it actually take to install ESP/sway control on our mopars

I've been toying with the idea of cannibalizing a wrecked 300/magnum/charger/rams power train into my 70.
By the time I rebuild the 340, the tranny, convert rear drums to disc and add AC, I'm probably going to pay a lot more than buying a wrecked car for a few grand.
Other than the massive amounts of time, any thoughts?

[quagmire]

These systems are very advanced, it would not be an easy undertaking.  You would need the ABS wheel speed sensors, steering angle and speed sensor (which is part of the steering column), the power rack and pump, ABS valve block and pump modules, a compatible master cyl. and booster, the combination yaw/accelerometer sensor, all associated wiring, relays, etc., a 5.7 engine and auto trans, the shocks and struts allong with any sensors, all of the related computer modules, ability to reprogram and recalibrate any of the required modules to your particular application.  Probably several others I forgot to list too. These systems are application specific; so simply swapping and integrating the parts is probably only half the battle, and the easy half at that! These systems control and monitor the brakes, engine, steering, suspension, and transmission to do what they do. If anything is missing or not functional the system is disabled and codes are stored.

[Aussie Challenger]

  This is definitly do-able. However as quagmire has stated the fitting/adapting is the easy part. If you are an electronics wiz this is for you.   
  Somebody will eventually do this conversion, I hope that they share their experiences with the rest of us.   

[GoodysGotaCuda]

Most systems will also reduce the torque of the engine in times of wheel slip. It would be extremely complicated and tedious to get things working properly.

I would say it is un-doable for the average joe to do. Unless you are a electrical and mechanical engineer for Dodge and have ALL the parts from a car availible (including brakes, engine, transmission, all modules on a can bus, etc). I wouldn't say it will only take "massive amounts of time", but a serious amount of electrical knowledge, some luck, and probably some information that can't be found.

[quagmire]

I have quite a of experience with the 300C's setup, it does control the engine and trans along with the brakes and suspension.  You would need most of the car to make it work, anyone component missing will make it go into a limp in mode.  These systems are very powerful.  We had a 300C we used for our stability control class that we used for testing purposes.  In the winter we took turns trying to break the tires loose with it on.  You could literally drive around the campus with the pedal floored, never touching the brake pedal and it would accelerate, brake, and corner perfectly.  It felt like an old lady was driving around it was so smooth, we didnt even now the system was working until the instructor pulled over and said he had the gas floored the entire time w/out braking!

[GoodysGotaCuda]

I do agree on how powerful they are, BMW has some amazing setups. Even the V12 760 at school we have behaves WELL for the weight and power it has.

[quagmire]

The BMW's are even crazier set ups. Some of them have electronic over hydraulic controlled active sway bars that are driven off of the power steering system.  They actually have hydraulic lines running to the sway bars.  They also have electronically controlled rack and pinions.  Those cars can drive themselves, they look at what you are wanting to do through steering inputs and decide if its okay before actually steering.  It's pretty much fly by wire.  Wait till the collision avoidance/anticipation systems start becoming more and more common.  Crazy technology!

Personally, if you are set on trying to get ABS/TCS in a car I would try to find an earlier generation system that isn't integrated with the PCM functions.  More basic systems used inputs from the brake switch and wheel speed sensors only and modulated the brakes in response.  Many of them did not use master cylinders with the electrohydraulic modulator and pump combined either.  Those setups would certainly be more doable, you would just have to make sure it has a separate ABS module and pirate all of the system components and find a way to wire and mount everything.  Most were either 3 or 4 channel, 3 channel would be much easier to set up given the stock brake hydraulic set up.

[Ross]

Basically if I wanted to gut a newer vehicle, and install all peripherals on an ebody, I'd have a chance other than that it would be very difficult.

I'll stick with rust removal for the time being!

Thanks guys.

[grimmey71]

what about just traction control. Has anyone tried to put that on their cars

[quagmire]

The systems are tied together, so ABS is part of the package generally when you have traction control. Sometimes they use engine power limiting through fuel and spark cut to supplement the ABS portion of the TCS, but I'm not aware of any that do not use ABS at all.  I know some stand alone setups can be used to do the engine power cutting portion, but I don't think that would be enough or gentle on the engine.  Not to mention the extreme cost of those high end standalones and all of the setup still necessary to provide wheel speed inputs.

[grimmey71]

here is a couple of places I found

Moretraction.com

http://racetronics.com/Copy_2_of_Racetronics_Web_Site/Black_Box_Brake_Control.html

http://racelogic.co.uk/?show=Traction_Control

[quagmire]

Yeah, those are awfully expensive though.  And you still need to fabricate mounts for the sensors.  I'm not quite sure how they pulse the brakes and how well it would work.  Personally I'd still opt for using a retrofitted stock system, which I'm willing to bet is much more advanced, reliable, and cheaper than any of the aftermarket stuff.  Peoples lives depend on brakes, so you know any production setup is going to be effective.  Bosch 5.3, Tevis Mk 4 ABS, Delphi ABS VI, Kelsey-Hayes 4WHAL, and many others are basic systems that do not require more than wheel speed inputs to function and can be found readily in a junkyard near you.  Some of these also were available with TCS too.  You'd still have to find a way to integrate wheel speed sensors, but that is an issue whether it is aftermarket or OE.

[go-fish]

Hell, just buy a new Challenger! 

[californiacuda]

There is a description on the factory five GTM forum about putting abs on a GTM kit car. Most Bosch abs units contain the computer, brake pump. etc. On the unit installed, a 2001 corvette abs unit was used. It did not need the can interface with the car's main computer. In its simplest application all that was needed were wheel speed sensors in each wheel. They are pretty easy to fabricate if the vehicle doesn't have them.

On of the interesting features about the Bosch abs unit was dynamic rear proportioning. During a panic stop the abs unit ramps up the brake force to the rear wheels to just short of wheel skid. Allowing the rear tires to help with their max stopping ability, but not allowing them to lock up. This along with abs greatly reduces stopping distance.

The corvette does have yaw control, steering angle sensor, etc. The stand alone abs unit will work without the inputs not related to wheel speed sensors and it will provide all 4 wheels with anti-lock capability.

[grimmey71]

thanks for the post.