Found or created a new problem......

Author Topic: Found or created a new problem......  (Read 5770 times)

Offline brads70

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 18747
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2010 - 07:36:17 AM »
I always drill a small hole in the T-stat to make sure all the air is out.
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0




Offline the_engineers

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2639
  • Cheap, fast, reliable...pick 2
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2010 - 12:45:50 PM »
Never heard of the upper having a spring...it's the pressure side :dunno:
Brooks

1971 'Cuda 360
2004 Infiniti G35 6-spd Coupe
2001 Toyota Solara Convertible
2002 GMC Savana 1500 Explorer Hightop Conversion
1972 Dodge Dart Swinger...keeping the Slant.  Rocking the turbos.

Offline 1970 RT Challenger 1970

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 774
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2010 - 02:34:49 PM »
any pics of the concerned engine area, hoses, etc?

Offline mopar12372

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1163
    • mopartech
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2010 - 03:49:59 PM »
the cooling system usually has a spring on the suction side (bottom hose) , there is no need for one on the top hose for a gasoline engine.
MOPARTECH.NET ( come over and visit some time )
RESTO PICTURES
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=71096.30

Offline Road_Runner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1825
  • Mopar Owner & Standard Bearer Since 1974
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2010 - 05:16:06 PM »
There's a lot of experience on this board and I know the way things work can be sometimes counter-intuitive,  but I've got to agree with Strawdog about the lower T-Stat temp not being the problem.  I don't see how it opening and letting the water flow through the block & radiator at a lower temp would cause overheating(?).   I guess if the water temp naturally hovers around 165 degrees (don't know whether that's true or not for this engine) it would cause the T-Stat to repeatedly open & shut, but won't that happen if the T-Stat's opens at 180 degrees as well.  It would stay closed until that temp is reached, it would open allowing the coolant to flow and then as soon as the temp drops below 180 it would close again, and then repeat this cycle over & over.  Or am I missing something?  Does an engine 'maintain' a temperature once its forced to reach it via the temp range of the T-Stat?  I'm really asking here as it would seem to only influence the minimum temp of the coolant, not the maximum....

Later, Jim
1970 383 Roadrunner Tor Red
1973 318 Barracuda Mist Green
2014 Mustang GT/CS Convertible All Black

Offline mopar12372

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1163
    • mopartech
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2010 - 08:50:34 PM »
thermostats are designed to slow down coolant flow so theres time for the coolant to heat up / cool down (stay in the radiator longer to let it do its job to cool down the engine) . when you have a cooler thermostat you keep the cooling system flowing more wich the hotter temps are set on the gauge(wich dosnt slow down the coolant flow for cooling) . the engine makes max power around 190 deg  so when you run lower cooling system temps have less power and cause the engine to build up with sludge and valve deposites , running too cool is a bad thing . you can also run too hot of a t-stat 200 -210 wich is way too close to blowing a head gasket and doing damage  to the engine , (wich means you can have tempratures up to 230 deg or more.  the cooling system is a closed system wich means  that certain things have to be there to operate correctly . fan shrouds / cooling fan depth in shroud / thermostat temp (do you live in the alps or in the desert , that will determine your thermostat temp) / thermostatic fan clutch engauges and disengauges at a certain temp too soo if you have the wrong temp thermostat it can mess things up. if you have done modifications to your car and the radiator is the same size as stock you will over heat or run on the border line . (electric fans only) if you run the wrong battery with the wrong alternater , when running electric cooling fans the car will run hotter bacause the  amperage demand is too high (from the fans) and the fans are always running too slow , may sound like they are working but they are not . good luck with your problem , hope you get it resolved . Bill
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010 - 08:59:25 PM by mopar12372 »
MOPARTECH.NET ( come over and visit some time )
RESTO PICTURES
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=71096.30

Offline Strawdawg

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2209
    • Vortex Buicks
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2010 - 12:35:02 AM »
A cooling system engineer with some thermodynamics education will tell you that the primary function of the thermostat is to set the minimum temperature of the coolant as well as get it up to a sufficient operating temperature as quickly as possible in order to minimize start up engine wear.

He will also mention that restricting coolant flow thru the system does not make the system actually cool any better because faster flow thru the system will reexpose the coolant to the air stream thru the radiator core more frequently so that the net effect is the same whether it gets there more  slowly, or more frequently.  He might also mention that we don't use lower volume water pumps to cool better, but that we use higher volume pumps and, sometimes, overdrive pulleys, to push it thru faster.  One cannot pump more volume without increasing speed.

Finally, the greatest efficiency of burn which results in lower emissions out the tail pipe occurs up around 195, but, the  greatest power is made at the lowest temp that allows sufficient expansion of the pistons and rings versus the cylinder bores which is usually around 160-170 degs of coolant and a bit higher for the oil temps...maybe about 200 degs there.

The lower temp minimizes detonation which often forces us to run less than optimum timing-particularly in a street engine.  That is the reason you see guys in the pits trying to cool the engines back down after each run....even if it takes putting cool water in the radiator to get the temp back to a desired level...makes tuning a lot easier as well as run more consistently.

195 deg thermostats and higher operating temps came about in more recent years as the factories were forced to cope with emissions standards which required the cleanest possible burn which occurs at the stochiometric a/f.  Mileage standards also pushed in that direction with modern efi systems.  :)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010 - 12:38:48 AM by Strawdawg »

Offline mopar12372

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1163
    • mopartech
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2010 - 02:43:45 AM »
Cooling System Basics for Spark Ignition Engines
SuperFlow Advanced Engine Technology Conference, December 7, 1992

Common Misconceptions
Coolant temperatures are not an accurate indicator of metal temperatures. The coolant's maximum temperature is it's pressure corrected vapor point. The metal can be several hundred degrees hotter than the adjacent coolant.
Temperatures of critical areas must be determined by checking the metal at a controlled distance from the combustion chamber surface. This eliminates discrepancies caused by the variances in metal thicknesses.
Higher coolant flow will ALWAYS result in higher heat transfer. Coolant cannot absorb heat after it reaches it's pressure corrected vapor point. Furthermore, coolant absorbs heat at a progressively slower rate as it approaches this point.
 

Energy Loss

Spark ignition engines loose almost 33% of their energy input through the cooling system.
Energy loss is very simple to calculate on the dyno or the vehicle. All you need is the inlet coolant temperature, outlet coolant temperature, coolant flow and the specific heat of the coolant.
Following is a typical engine:

Inlet temperature = 180 F
Outlet temperature = 190 F
Coolant flow = 100 GPM
Specific heat of coolant = 1.0
1 HP = 5.2769885 GPM 1 F
{ (Outlet-Inlet)CS} / 5.2769885 = HP loss
{(190-180) 100*1.0} / 5.2769885 = 189.5 H
Basic Functions of the Cooling System

Peak temperature in the combustion chamber is in excess of 5000 F. Aluminum melts at 1220 F, Iron at 1990-2300 F. Therefore, the obvious primary function of the cooling system is the prevention of component damage.
However, spark ignition (SI) engines experience pre-ignition and subsequent detonation at temperatures much lower than those resulting in component failure.
Poor cooling system performance results in component damage in SI engines but, this damage is a result of pre-ignition/detonation. Not the temperature alone.
This secondary function of controlling pre-ignition/detonation is actually the most important in the SI engine.
 

Engines

On traditional flow configurations the block is pressurized by the water pump and functions as a manifold. The head gasket distributes the coolant through it's orifices. Block pressure must be consistent from front to rear to insure uniform coolant distribution. Low pressure will results in less flow around the rear cylinders.
Reverse flow systems pressurize the cylinder heads and bleed off through the block. Coolant gains only 1-2 F as it goes through the block. Reverse flow decreases the temperature of the coolant through the cylinder heads by this amount. The fact that steam rises complicates reverse flow systems and generally makes the 1-2 F reduction in coolant temperature insignificant at best.
The flow through each orifice in the head gasket can be determined by measuring the pressure drop across each orifice while coolant is being forced through the engine.
Coolant flow has a direct relationship to area and an exponential relationship to pressure. Meaning that when you double the area of an orifice and maintain pressure the flow doubles, but when you double the pressure and maintain area the flow is only increased by 1.414 (the square root of 2).
Strategic Flow systems take advantage of the knowledge gained through flow mapping. 100% of the coolant flow crosses the critical exhaust seat area first and is then distributed according to need to the other areas of the engine. Coolant is taken from the highest point thus eliminating the pitfalls of reverse flow systems.

 

 

 

Radiators

The most important criteria for any radiator is it's surface area. The thickness of the core is increased only after the surface area is maximized. Adding thickness to a radiator does not increase it's efficiency the same extent as surface area, but in no case will additional thickness alone decrease the efficiency.
The radiator becomes less efficient as the coolant outlet temperature approaches ambient. Therefore, a low flow rate keeps the coolant in the radiator longer. The longer the coolant stays in the radiator the lower the efficiency of the radiator.
Non-laminar or turbulent coolant flow must be maintained within the radiator core.
When baffles are inserted in the tanks to force the water to go through the radiator twice, the water spends the same amount of time in the radiator but must go twice the distance. Thus doubling the sped of the water.
Crossflow radiators with a fill cap always have the cap on the outlet side. Upright radiators have the cap in the inlet side and thus subject the filler cap to the pressure drop of the radiator's core in addition to the system pressure. This can lower the effective pressure of a 22 PSI cap to as low as 10 PSI.
Thermostat housing restrictors were useful when upright radiators were used with 7 lb. caps. The restrictor slowed the flow and kept the pressure in the radiator down. This prevented the cap from expelling water and causing the car to overheat. Most people wrongly assumed the car ran hot and expelled water. The cars actually expelled water and ran hot.
Hoses
Large diameter hoses with large radius bends should be used. Never use braided hoses, they will always result in higher metal temperatures.


 

 
MOPARTECH.NET ( come over and visit some time )
RESTO PICTURES
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=71096.30

Offline mopar12372

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1163
    • mopartech
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2010 - 02:44:57 AM »
Hoses
Large diameter hoses with large radius bends should be used. Never use braided hoses, they will always result in higher metal temperatures.


 

 

Pressure

Higher system pressures raise the vapor point of the coolant and subsequently it's ability to absorb heat. A system pressure of 12-17 PSI results from the expansion of the coolant and trapped air going from ambient temperature to operating temperature.
The system achieves this pressure only when the system is filled cold. When a warm system is opened and resealed this pressure is not obtainable because the coolant and trapped air are already expanded when the system is sealed.
A Schrader valve installed in the system will allow the system to be charged by an air hose. This allows an already warm system to achieve operating pressure and minimizes the effect of trapped air in a cold system.
The fill cap must be the highest point of the system. Surge tanks must be used if the top of the radiator is not the highest point.
Trapped air seeks the highest point. A new system always has trapped air.
Always fill the surge tank completely, when the system reaches operating temperature it will expel any excess water out the overflow.
Placing a fill cap in the top radiator hose subjects the cap to the pressure drop of the top hose and the radiator core in addition to the system pressure. This can lower the effective pressure of a 22 PSI cap to as low as 2 PSI.
The vapor point of water increases under pressure as follows:

10 PSIG = 239° F
20 PSIG = 259° F
30 PSIG = 273° F
40 PSIG = 286° F
50 PSIG = 297° F
60 PSIG = 307° F
70 PSIG = 316° F
Always use the highest pressure cap available. It merely serves as safety valve that has no function when the system is operating properly.

Coolant

1 BTU is the amount of energy required to raise 1 pound of water 1°F. Of all common liquids water requires the most energy to accomplish this. Therefore water has a specific heat of 1°. An Ethylene Glycol/water mix has a specific heat of .5, meaning it requires only .5 BTUs to raise the temperature of 1 pound Ethylene Glycol/water mix 1° F. Propylene Glycol has a specific heat of only .3.
On a typical engine with a coolant flow rate of 100 GPM and an energy loss through the cooling system of 189.5 HP, water would need to gain only 10° F, Ethylene Glycol/water mix would gain 20° F, and Propylene Glycol would gain 33.3° F.
This equation is complicated by the difference in a vapor point of the 3 coolants. Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol have higher vapor points and thus can absorb heat at higher temperatures. However, even with it's lower vapor point, water still carries more heat per unit than the others.
Grill Opening

Radiators have approximately one third open area. The remainder is taken up by the fins and tubes. The maximum functional grill opening equals the open area of the radiator.
Radiator open area can be calculated by subtracting the area taken up by tubes and fins from the total.
Grill open area can be calculated by subtracting the area taken up by decorative grill work and the wire mesh from the total.
The angle of the grill opening complicates the issue because a sloping opening passes less air than a vertical opening.
Blocking off a sloping grill opening affects the aerodynamic balance much greater than blocking a vertical opening. The entire grill opening should be vertical if at all possible.
Pumps

Proper bench testing of accessories is the only proper method of development. The accessories affect so many functions of the engine that testing them on a running engine on the dyno is a total waste of effort.
The coolant pump is a great example of an accessory that must be tested and developed off the engine. To bench test the coolant pump you must know pressure drops at a given flow for all the components of the cooling system.
Following is a typical Winston Cup engine at 100 GPM:

Lower radiator hose = 1.5 PSI
Block and cylinder head - each (at 50 GPM) = 8.5
Outlet manifolding = 1.25
Top radiator hose = 2.25
Radiator = 1.5
Total = 15.00 PSI
In addition to having the proper flow restriction as expressed in GPM @ PSI the cooling system pressure and temperature must be known. All these conditions are duplicated for the bench test.

Energy losses due to driving the coolant pump can only be calculated when all conditions are duplicated and torque and RPM measured. Amp draw of the drive motor is not an accurate measure of the energy required to drive the pump. Torque must be measured with a load cell and horsepower calculated from there.

Most pumps are biased to the inlet side. Most even spaced cylinder heads (IE, IE, IE, IE) are biased to the exhaust end.

There are three basic impeller designs: universal, clockwise, and counter clockwise. The directional specific impellers are more efficient that the universal impellers. The performance of all designs are very similar when installed in the same housing.

Metal temperatures always increase when you slow the water pump down.

Next Tip - Competitors Comparison
   
 
 

 



 
            ©2004 Stewart Components.  All rights reserved.
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
MOPARTECH.NET ( come over and visit some time )
RESTO PICTURES
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=71096.30

Offline Strawdawg

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2209
    • Vortex Buicks
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2010 - 10:01:11 AM »
For once, I gave the right answer in less words than an engineering report! :dogpile:

Some additional interesting material in that write up, thanks for taking the time to post it.  It will probably be at least two days before someone else says that a thermostat  makes water stay in the radiator longer so it will cool down better and breaks the laws of thermodynamics once again, tho :dunno: :grinno:

Offline mopar12372

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1163
    • mopartech
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2010 - 03:10:08 PM »
hopefully you will get your car to stop over heating ,  sorry for interupting your post .
MOPARTECH.NET ( come over and visit some time )
RESTO PICTURES
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=71096.30

Offline TreeFrog

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2848
  • Can Ya HEMI Now! If you can't dodge it Ram it!
    • TreeFrog
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2010 - 09:27:27 PM »
go buy a new T-stat.  Sometimes new ones ar just not good.  and for  cost .. try a new one.  if that is not the problem, just save the other and use it next time.
65 Satellite     361 Ruby Red Poly
72 Challenger    360 Top Banana     
73 Challenger    340 Triple Black
87 Dodge Ram     318 Blue
88 Dodge Ram     360 Grey (+)
04 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L Pewter Met.

Offline 4x4HEMIrig

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 143
  • U. S. Navy: Interior Communications Electrician
Re: Found or created a new problem......
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2011 - 11:42:46 PM »
Here's a pic of the top. As you can see, the upper hose is very rigid. It's a Gates "factory replacement" option I got from O'Rileys. The lower hose is the same. I'll try the higher temp stat. I won't be able to take it for a test drive until April or May. We have about a foot of snow here and it probably won't be nice until then. Also, I have a deal with the local High School's auto teacher to have them replace all of my suspension bushings and upper "A" arms at the end of next month. It could take a while, I should be able to get the t-stat done by then, no problem. I'll look into getting the upper hose replaced with an actual factory replacement.
-Aaron-
Bozeman, MT, USA (and wherever the Navy takes me)

2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon, Rigid industries off road lights, Rough Country 4" suspension lift, CB radio... still working on it.
Fellow Service Members and Veterans, join me on www.togetherweserved.com, JK owners at www.jkowners.com, and Hemi Truck owners (and former owners) on www.hemitruckclub.com.
Former wheels: 1972 Dodge Challenger 340 Rallye, 2003 Hemi Ram 1500, 2006 Dodge Charger R/T.
Future projects in the garage: Streetable .030 over 383, 1977 Chevy Custom 20 SC/LB.