360 build for daily driver

Author Topic: 360 build for daily driver  (Read 14932 times)

Offline femtnmax

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360 build for daily driver
« on: February 24, 2009 - 06:05:12 PM »
For my 360 engine build, I'm sorta copying a combination of two magazine articles.  First is a 340/414 stroker build written up in the spring 2008 Hot Rod do it yourself engine series; and second is a 5.9L 360 magnum written in the fall 2008 Engine Masters magazine.  The Hot Rod article follows a 414 build done by School of Automotive Machinists in Houston, TX; the Engine Masters 360 was just a mod to a factory 5.9L crate engine.  I’ll have final data as the engine comes together; but here is my starting point.

The 414 had a compression ratio of 10:1, and the 5.9L used the stock 9:1.  My 360 will be about 10.5:1, so when allowance for aluminum head heat dissipation I'll have about 9.5:1; which works well at my elevation above sea level 4800 feet.
The 414 set their piston tops at zero deck, top of block, the 5.9L had what ever the factory set them at.  My 360 will be a little above zero deck for quench clearance of about 0.035 using 0.040 head gasket.
The 414 used Edel magnum cylinder heads, which they said had slightly better flow numbers, and improved combustion chamber compared to Edel's LA heads.   They said the combustion chamber size was increase from 58cc to 65cc to obtain the correct compression ratio.  The 5.9L used out of the box magnum heads with no port or combustion chamber work.   I found that the chamber size increased from 58cc to 64cc when both intake and exhaust valves were unshrouded: cut back to near the head gasket scribe line.
A mistake I made was first adding to the size of the valve relief’s on the piston tops to lower my compression ratio, then doing the work on the heads and finding the large increase in combustion chamber volume with the unshrouding cuts.  I had to mill the heads 0.010 to get the combustion chamber cc's back where they belonged.
 
Remember, its the port/bowl work done within 1 inch each side of the valve seat that has the most effect for street type valve lifts where the lift divided by valve diameter equals about 0.25.  This is where the valve seat region controls most all the flow.

The cam used on the 414 was a Comp hyd roller with 242/248 at 0.05 duration, and 0.594/0.581 lift using 1.65/1.6 rockers.  LSA was 110 deg.
The 5.9L build used a Comp XFI hyd roller (lobes # 3016/3037) with 230/236 at 0.05, and 0.576/0.571 lift using 1.6 rocker ratio.  LSA was also 110 deg.
I chose to use a Lunati Voodoo hyd flat tappet designed for Mopar's 0.904 lifter diameter.  Specs are lobes # VH44/VH45, 271/279 duration seat to seat, and 226/234 at 0.05.  Lift is  0.559/0.547 using 1.7/1.6 rocker ratio.  LSA is 110 + 4.

The 414 used a single plane victor intake manifold modified to fit the magnum heads and a 1 inch tall open carb spacer; said they did not need the additional low end torque of a dual plane intake.   The 5.9L used a Mopar M1 single plane with a 1 inch tall open carb spacer.  They suggested the M1 had high flow but also long runners for mid range torque.   I'll be using a Edel RPM air gap dual plane intake with 0.875 four hole spacer to adapt a thermoquad carb to the intake.

Here's a photo of a mold I made of a stock intake port for the Edel magnum cylinder head.  Note the generous pushrod restriction.
 SAM ported the restriction completely out for their 414 and added bronze inserts within the pushrod holes in the heads to open up this restriction.  Their intake port volume went from 176cc to 190cc.  They listed head flow cfm at 288/205 for 0.600 lift.  They said the Edel magnum heads work well for mild street applications like their 414.   The 5.9L listed stock unported flow at 261/189 cfm for 0.600 valve lift. 
I'm working on unshrouding the valves and opening up the pushrod restriction like SAM.

The 414 listed TQ/HP on their dyno with 503 tq at 4300 rpm and 501 hp at 5700. 
The 5.9L said they had 434 tq at 4800 rpm, and 448 hp at 5800 rpm, but we are always told not to believe the magazine builds as their job is to sell parts for advertisers.
So if I reduce the 414 numbers by 12 % for 366 cubic inches vs 414 cubes, and include my smaller cam, then my TQ/HP could be 430/420.  Maybe end up with 420 tq/400 hp which is still doing well, and I’ll be able to use low-mid octane pump gas.
Phil




Offline femtnmax

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Re: 360 build for daily driver
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2010 - 11:00:56 PM »
Sorry for the slow build progress.  I'm doing the whole car of course, and there is only so much money each month to spend.

Ended up with 0.03 over LA block, stock Mopar cast iron crank, clevite main and rod bearings, Eagle forged steel "H" beam connecting rods, Engine Pro 9 position timing chain and gear set; the crank gear has the 9 keyways cut into it.  Ross forged pistons, flat top with 5cc valve reliefs.  Edelbrock RPM air gap intake manifold and Edelbrock RPM magnum cylinder heads.   Using OEM stock 5 quart oil pan and stock pressure/volume Melling oil pump.  I'll be adding an flat baffle down in the oil pan to keep the oil from sloshing around.  I plan to make an oil scraper for the pan.

The Eagle rods needed the small ends trued up, they were a little tight, and had a slight taper.  The big ends were slightly small with one rod almost 0.001 below the minimum spec.  They probably would have been ok as is, but I had a real picky machine shop correct the rods to spec, with the big ends set to the minimum spec for maximum bearing crush.

For static and dynamic compression ratio, using the KB silvolite calculator
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

Input the following info:
cylinder head volume:62cc, unshroud the valves on the Edy heads, and 0.010 deck cut
piston head volume:  5cc
head gasket thickness:  0.039  felpro 1008
head gasket bore:  4.18
cylinder bore diameter:  4.03
deck clearance:  0.005   thats below the deck surface, quench=0.039+.005=.044 inch
stroke:  3.58
rod length:  6.123
intake closing:  63 degrees after bottom dead center
RESULTS:
static compression ratio:  10.75   subtract 1 point for alum head heat loss=9.75, should run on premium pump gas.
dynamic compression ratio:  8.66

From the Speedtalk forum, check ratios by dropping compression to regular pump gas level:
increase cylinder head volume:  74cc  assumes cast iron head
intake closing:  58 deg. ABDC    earlier intake closing for conservative street cam
RESULTS:  static ratio 9.4 and dynamic ratio 7.9   these are both good for cast iron head and low-mid grade pump gas, so this means the higher ratios are also ok for pump gas. 

I'll be using Edelbrock RPM Magnum heads with the pushrod oiling.  I chose these heads for somewhat low cost, rocker arms of various ratios are relatively cheap, they have good dual quench pad combustion chamber that is shaped to promote intake mixture flow to center of cylinder not just along the cylinder walls washing off the oil.  The pushrod pinch is a concern, but I found an article in the Spring 2008 Engine Masters magazine for a 340/414 stroker.  They used the Edel magnum heads, and added brass tubes to the intake pushrod holes to allow porting the pushrod pinch out as much as possible.  So I copied their idea.   
I noticed on the Shady Dell website they did not use brass tubes, rather only widened the port to leave some small amount of cast aluminum between the port and pushrod hole.  I made an "E" tool to allow accurate removal of material.  I wrote that tool up in on this forum:   "Intake port pushrod pinch E-tool"  in Engine & Go Fast Goodies.

For a cam, I'm going with flat tappet to keep initial cost down.  I could not find a solid lifter cam with short enough duration for good street use, and keep the power brakes happy.  I looked at Bullet cams 260/260 with 234/234 duration at 0.05.  I called their tech dept.  They verified that to compare solid to hydraulic, take the solid duration at 0.05 and subtract 8 degrees to account for the solid cams valve lash.  So this makes the 234/234 into 226/226 which is right where a good street cam 0.05 duration should be.  BUT, the Bullet tech said that the 260 cam has obviously real short seat duration considering the 0.05 duration.  They asked how much street driving I'd be doing.  I told them 90-95% would be street driving, and maybe 5000+ miles per year.  The tech said the cam would not hold up.  Slow driving doesn't throw enough oil onto the aggressive lobes to keep them alive.
So with Engle cams out of business ( I was going to use their K56 cam with 272/272 and 223/223 at 0.05), I chose to go with Bullet cams HC 272/336.   This cam is hydraulic flat tappet, specs are seat duration 272/272 and 0.05 duration 224/224.  lobe lift is 0.336 inch, when combined with 1.6 rocker arm ratio gives valve lift of 0.537 inch.

Other valve train parts include:
ARP rocker studs:  #334-7204  with 8.0 total length
Comp Cam pushrods # 7995-16  5/16 diam, chrome steel
Comp ProMagnum full roller rocker arms  #1305-16    steel, 1.6 ratio, with polylocks,     these were recommended on the speedtalk forum for holding up well for street use.

Pushrod length includes allowing for 1/2 turn for lifter preload (0.060 inch) and 0.04 inch for valvetrain deflection, so the pushrods are 0.10 extra long.  The contact pattern is on the exhaust side of the centerline of the valve stem, and sweeps an arc from near the stem centerline toward the exh side, then back toward the stem centerline.   The total roller tip sweep across the valve stem tip was about 0.04 inch.  I'll check the roller on valve tip pattern at 500 miles to see if change of pushrod length is required.

Checking valve lift at the valve spring retainer showed the 1.6 roller rockers are really about 1.65 ratio, and that's after accounting for the 59 degree lifter angle.  The valve lift difference amongst all 16 rockers was only 0.007 inch which is 1.3% deviation.
I tried Comp Cam High Energy hydraulic lifters, but they are so loose internally and have a weak internal spring that they were collapsing under the load of a Crane Cams check spring.
I bought the hydraulic lifters from Bullet to go with their cam, these lifters showed no amount of collapse against the check springs, so accurate valve lift was obtained using a Snap On magnetic base dial indicator, and lift was double checked with a dial caliper and straight edge.
Lift at both intake and exhaust valves was 0.554 inch, which should make good use of the ported heads.

The centerline of the pushrods were close to the intake manifold gasket surface.  I measured from the intake manifold gasket surface flat along the valve cover gasket surface ( 0.642 to centerline) and flat along the head gasket surface (0.507 to centerline).  Add 0.05 inch to pushrod diameter (5/16 = 0.313) for measurement variation recorded at valve closed and valve full open:  0.313+.05=0.363, so a 0.375 hole for the pushrods is all that is needed, rather than the Edel hole which is 0.545 diam.   It's that big round hole that makes the magnum head pushrod pinch so bad.  If they would have cut a slot (like cheby does) then the port could have been made wider.  With today's CNC equipment, cutting slots is easy.  Edy is just being lazy, maybe favoring the chebys.

The intake port pushrod pinch could be much reduced by installing aluminum round dowels lightly pressed into the original pushrod holes, then the new smaller pushrod hole could be drilled, and then the entire original pushrod pinch could be removed to widen the intake ports, rather than the brass tube idea I used.  I epoxied the brass tubes in place, the aluminum dowels could be installed with sleeve retainer or lock tight, and tack welded top and bottom.

Allowing for the new 0.375 pushrod hole, the port could be widened from the stock width of 0.88 inch to 1.0 inch.  This would increase the port cross section area from stock 2.125 x 0.88=1.87 sq inch to 2.125 x 1.0=2.12 sq inch.
Peak torque RPM is calculated with the equation:  PTQ=CA x 88,200 / cyl volume
where CA is intake port minimum cross section area, and cyl volume is volume of 1 cylinder.
So stock Edel peak torque RPM  PTQ=1.87 x 88,200/45.64 = 3600 rpm
For the ported intake port PTQ=2.12 x 88,200/45.64 = 4100 rpm, which would place peak horse power at about 1500 rpm greater = 5600 rpm. Just about right for the camshaft, intake manifold, and typical street driving.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2010 - 11:10:09 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 360 build for daily driver
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2010 - 01:51:19 PM »
I would be less concerned with widening the area by the pushrod , I do widen that area but it creates a venturi spedding up the air flow right behind the valve

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Offline femtnmax

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Re: 360 build for daily driver
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2011 - 11:58:44 AM »
Head gaskets ended up using Felpro Q1008 which has 4.18 bore and .039 compressed thickness.  Sprayed with permatex copper coat, let dry till tacky and installed.  The head bolts need to be retorqued after the running the engine; I noticed the shorter bolts don't retain their correct torque thus the need for a retorque.  Ross forged pistons  .005 down in the cylinder bores gives .044 quench (.040 would be more ideal, but .044 is still real good).
I had problems with home made oil pan windage scraper...could not read the dipstick, so took oil pan off, fixed the dipstick but lost oil prime.   Joe Gibbs break in oil was recommended and available, so put that in the engine for initial start up.

Cranked the engine over maybe 10-15 seconds at most to prime oil system...BUT cranking to prime the high cam lobe ramp rate for 904 lifter combined with faster 1.6 rocker arms doomed the camshaft... during the 20 minute cam break in @2300+ RPM wiped out 3 cam lobes, and one of the ruined lifters had been rotating correctly...the lifter face was worn concave.
I had set the lifter preload by doing one head, then the other.  BUT...this turns the engine over many more revolutions than setting the preload at TDC using firing order of engine.  I have never had problems with a little cranking for prime or the order of setting lifters, but this goes to show the 904 cam lobe ramp rates are hard on parts.  Even some of the cam techs I talked with, and some forum suggestions said for street use to go with Ford ramp rates...better than chevy, but not as aggressive as Mopar 904 rates.
So asked some questions on this forum and dodgecharger.com forum.  For STREET USE the consensus was the 904 ramp rates are maybe ok when combined with a maximum 1.5 rocker arm ratio, but the lifter bores in the block need to be checked/redone so they are properly located... They say what is killing the higher lift fast rate cams, even with zinc rich oil, is the idling around town at stop lights and such.

Since I'm using magnum style cylinder heads with 1.6 rocker ratio, I decided to go to less valve lift, so when combined with 1.6 rocker would approximate the same result as 904 cam with only 1.5 rocker:
The 904 cam lobe ramp rates are about 7% faster than chevy.
The 1.6 rocker ratio is 6.6% faster than 1.5 ratio. 
End result for now:   Put in Comp cam 270H with 270/270 seat duration, 224/224@.05, .470/.470 lift, 110 LSA.  Compared to 1.5 rocker ratio, a 1.6 ratio adds 3* at .05 lift, 7* at .20 lift, and .031 inch to the valve lift.  So specs for 1.6 rocker are:
270/270 seat duration, 227/227*dur@.05, 142*dur@.20, .501/.501 valve lift, 110 LSA.

Comparing Comp 270H with 1.6 rocker ratio to Lunati Voodoo Ford 268 duration and Voodoo Mopar 271 duration (both with 1.5 rocker ratio):
Ford 268:  227*@.05 lift, 140*@.200 lift
270H:        227*@.05,     142*@.200
Mopar271: 226*@.05,    145*@.200
So the 270H falls right in the middle, just what Bullet tech and Lunati tech suggested.

Checkiing final compression numbers with the KB silvolite calculator, input the following info:
cylinder head volume:62cc, unshroud the valves on the Edy heads, and 0.010 deck cut
piston head volume:  5cc
head gasket thickness:  0.039  Edelbrock #7326
head gasket bore:  4.14
cylinder bore diameter:  4.03
deck clearance:  0.005   thats below the deck surface, quench=0.039+.005=.044 inch
stroke:  3.58
rod length:  6.123
intake closing:  61 degrees after bottom dead center
RESULTS:
static compression ratio:  10.77   subtract 1 point for alum head heat loss=9.77, should run on premium pump gas.
dynamic compression ratio:  8.8

From the Speedtalk forum, check ratios by dropping compression to regular pump gas level:  increase cylinder head volume to 74cc  (assumes cast iron head).
RESULTS:  static ratio 9.4 and dynamic ratio 7.7   these are both good for cast iron head and mid grade pump gas at my elevation, so this means the higher ratios are also ok for pump gas.

If the Comp 270H cam works out for decent street torque and drivability (has 50* overlap),  I may try a Bullet hydraulic flat tappet cam with Ford ramp rates:  HF277/335 with 49* overlap
277°/277° advertised duration,  228°/228° duration @ 0.050, 142*duration @.20, 0.503" lift with 1.5 rocker, and .536 lift with 1.6 rocker ratio.  This cam was recommended on the Ford 351C forum by their moderator, and is a blend of 351 cobra jet and Boss 351 cam specs.

I may need to reduce seat duration for better low speed torque with my 3.23 axle gears, while the increased lsa will help maintain the torque curve to a higher rpm.  I know I'd be loosing some peak numbers, but good street manners and broad torque curve would be a plus.

I'm looking into mechanical flat tappet cams so EDM oiling could be used.  There are limited choices for true street use seat durations, so need to see how the 270 seat duration works out first.

When were not buried in snow and can leave the doors open I'll get engine idle vacuum and such to post here.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011 - 08:33:18 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 360 build for daily driver
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2011 - 08:59:32 PM »
Head gasket update:  ended up using Felpro Q1008 head gaskets coated with permatex copper coat.  I noticed when I pulled the heads off the shorter bolts were "looser" than spec.  So a head bolt retorque is a must.  I have no water seapage/leaks now..so that is good.

Camshaft update:  The Comp 270H and 1.6 rocker ratio did not work out well for street use.  Idle vacuum was only 8 inches (at my altitude of 4600 feet), and strong torque did not come on until 3000 rpm...way too high for street use and my 3.23 rear axle gear ratio.
So picked a Lunati H215 cam with duration in the middle of OEM 340 cam:
340 OEM cam:  268/276 seat duration, 210/220 duration @.05 lift, .429/.444 valve lift, 114 LSA, 44 deg overlap
H215 specs w/ 1.6 rocker ratio:  265/265 seat dur, 218/218 dur @ .05 lift, .483/.483 lift, 112 LSA, 41 deg ovrlp

With the H215 idle vacuum is 12.5 inches, and strong torque comes on at 2200 rpm.  Engine idles smoothly at 850 rpm.  Timing advance at idle is set at 14 degrees BTC, with 36 degrees total by 2500 rpm.  Idle vacuum is still a little weak, may try a vacuum canister.  At sea level the 12.5 vac would be about 16+ inches which would be great.
The H215 cam with 1.6 rocker ratio has specs very close to lunati Voodoo VH32 (with 1.5 rocker ratio).
VH32 specs w/ 1.5 rocker ratio:  262/262 seat dur, 219/219 dur@.05 lift, .499/.499 lift, 112 LSA, 42 deg overlap
Combining the VH32 with 1.6 rocker ratio gives specs close to lunati VH43 cam which is designed for mopar 904 lifter diameter.
So there's a few cam choices for 1.6 rocker ratio:  Comp 270H, and Lunati H215 and  VH32.  Just for fun I'd like to try the VH32 with 1.6 rockers, we will see.

Valve springs:  The Edy head valve spring pressure was 120 lb seat load with 285 open load.  Even the Comp 270H had damaged lifters after cam break-in with those springs.  So I reduced the seat load by installing Lunati valve springs #73262.  These springs have only 103 lb seat load and 285 open load.  Had to change out the valve spring shim to VSI #A401 which has the same .060 thickness as the Edy shim, but is flat rather than cupped like the Edy.  Needed the flat shim to accomodate the slightly large O.D. of the Lunati springs. Cam break in was no problem with the new springs using same Joe Gibss BR30 oil and 15 minutes at 2000-3000 rpm and varying the engine speed within this range.

So in the end the magnum cylinder head with 1.6 rocker ratio really limited the camshaft choices because all the cams are designed around 1.5 rocker ratio.  I had to experiment with cam durations and degrees of overlap to find a cam that would work well for my intended use.  I had originally selected the Edy magnum heads due to their better combustion chamber shape and choice of rocker arms/ratios.  The pushrod holes in the magnum heads won't accept 1.5 rockers, but look like they would accept 1.7 ratio.
I'm going to wait and see about the "new" cylinder heads for small block mopars...there is talk that one or two outfits are designing heads and will have offerings the end of 2011 or in 2012.  If there proves to be such an option, and they flow better than the Edys or RHS I'll seriously consider new aluminum heads with the old "LA" style rocker shaft.  There are decent quality rocker ratios available now for the shaft style heads, and you get the valve train stability benefits of the shaft system too.

Have almost 500 miles on the engine now.  The engine runs good, runs strong, easy to drive around town, great acceleration for passing on the highway.  Need to tweek the carb jetting when the weather warms up.  Hope all my experimenting helps someone out there.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011 - 10:20:12 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline jimynick

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Re: 360 build for daily driver
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2011 - 11:15:52 PM »
Can't speak for the others, but I'm lovin' it Phil.  :thumbsup:

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 360 build for daily driver
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2011 - 08:07:11 PM »
Update: 1800 miles on the 360 V8
The engine runs good.  Strong torque comes in around 2200 rpm.  I wanted to increase the intake valve lift closer to 0.500 inch, so I upped the intake lift by adding Comp Cam Ultra pro magnum 1.65 rockers to the intake valves.  Can’t say that I can feel the difference, but the engine runs well.  It pulls strongly and easily to 6000+ rpm.

I added a Milodon 7 quart oil pan, along with welding on a 1/8 inch thick skid plate to the bottom of the pan.  Also went with a high volume standard pressure oil pump.

No issues with my brass tubing that I epoxied in the intake port pushrod holes when porting out the intake port choke common to the magnum cylinder heads.

I swapped the thermoquad carb out for a Quick Fuel Super Street series 750 cfm carb with annular boosters and mechanical secondaries.  It’s nice to be able to tune and adjust everything on the carb.  I’m still tuning with tweaks here and there, but you can tell the potential is there.  With the TQ carb the engine tended to want to stall when letting the clutch out if the gas pedal wasn’t depressed just the right amount… with the larger primary bores on the Quick Fuel carb you barely touch the gas and let the clutch out…off you go no problem.  So I’m liking the square bore 4 barrel with the 4 speed trany rather than the spread bore carb with the small primaries.   
Phil

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 360 build for daily driver
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011 - 01:52:35 PM »
Sounds good
I will continue to say that even with similar specs Lunati makes a better cam for the Mopars
Glad you are enjoying it !!

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Offline femtnmax

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Re: 360 build for daily driver
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2011 - 11:37:56 AM »
With 3000 miles on the car, the engine performed well, but there was room for improvement.  The car’s weight at 3800 lb with driver and the 3.23 axle ratio needs just the right camshaft to work real well on the street. 
The cam that’s in the car now, an H215 cam with 265 seat duration and 220 @.05 had great mid range and top end power, pulling strong and steady to 6400+ rpm.   Starting from a stop was a different story; there was a wait for the engine to pick up speed until about 1400-1500 rpm.  So a cam with better low end torque is required.
Lunati offers a voodoo 256/262 in their Ford 351C-400M lineup.  They say “best choice for daily driven street performance, with emphasis on low to mid range”.  This cam has 213/219 duration @.05 lift; note how similar that is to the Mopar’s OEM 340 spec of 210/220.    This cam uses lobes compatible with 1.5-1.73 rocker ratios, so my choice of 1.6 rocker ratio fits right in.
The designer of the voodoo lobes said they tested a 256/256 single pattern cam with 112 lsa on a 355 cid engine.  Peak torque was at 4800 rpm and the cam pulled to 6200 rpm.  My setup has good flowing heads, headers, and fairly free flowing exhaust system, so I am staying with a single pattern cam.   
So my new cam specs are:  lobe #VH31 with 256/256 seat duration, 213/213 dur@.05 lift (216/216 using 1.6 rocker ratio), and ground on a 112/108 lobe separation angle.  Valve lift with 1.6 rocker is .485/.485.  Lunati tech said that cam  lobe ramp rates can produce more tq and hp than total valve lift, so the voodoo lobes fit this requirement nicely.
For right now winter is here.  I’ll have the cam in before next spring, then looking forward to road testing:).
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011 - 09:36:43 PM by femtnmax »
Phil