A/F Meter Recommendations

[cwestra]

I used an Innovate gauge in my challenger and I'm really happy with it, latest Bosch LSU4.9 sensor, they even have an iPhone link so you can record your drive and replay the AFRs in real time, amazing system

What model Innovate did you go with?

[cwestra]

It would seem like to properly evaluate the A/F ratio you'd need to run the car under load, not just opening the throttle while in park.  Is that a correct assumption or not?  If so, how would I use a tail pipe sniffer effectively?

[dodj]

What model Innovate did you go with?

I went with the 3844 MTX-L

[Strawdawg]

It would seem like to properly evaluate the A/F ratio you'd need to run the car under load, not just opening the throttle while in park.  Is that a correct assumption or not?  If so, how would I use a tail pipe sniffer effectively?

Yes, that is correct.  Only proper way is to permanently mount a bung in the collector, or perhaps in the X pipe altho some of the instructions suggest mounting it closer to the engine.  You want to do your wot tuning under load, cruise under normal loads so trying to use a sniffer is basically good for idle.  Also, the sensor has to be stuffed about three ft up the tail pipe to avoid contamination of the a/f mix by outside air.

I have gone thru several of the Innovate LC-1s and recently gave a couple to a friend who is a glutton for punishment.  PLX and the NGK-AFX are well regarded.  The AFX uses the NGK sensor these days which will handle higher temps and last longer if leaded gas is used.

The Bosch sensor is cheaper to replace but will not endure a lot of high egts and fail quickly in the presence of lead.  The NGK has come down a lot in price in the past year but is not as cheap as the Bosch.  The Bosch is not too bad on non-aspirated cars because the egt's are usually not that high and mounting the sensor down in the collector allows the gas to cool down quite a bit as well.

AEM makes one that does not have to be calibrated and some have had good luck with it.  Reviews are quite mixed as is often the case with such things.  I think it is one of the cheaper available and the reviews probably reflect this.

One thing that is important with all of them is to have a good solid voltage supply and a good engine or battery ground.  The Innovates were particularly bad about having ground offsets if all the grounds did not go to the same place on the engine or battery.  At least the instructions were explicit in this regard and my experiences bore this out.  The AFX that I bought recently said the same but it did not have as many wires to connect

[cwestra]

Yes, that is correct.  Only proper way is to permanently mount a bung in the collector, or perhaps in the X pipe altho some of the instructions suggest mounting it closer to the engine.  You want to do your wot tuning under load, cruise under normal loads so trying to use a sniffer is basically good for idle.  Also, the sensor has to be stuffed about three ft up the tail pipe to avoid contamination of the a/f mix by outside air.

I have gone thru several of the Innovate LC-1s and recently gave a couple to a friend who is a glutton for punishment.  PLX and the NGK-AFX are well regarded.  The AFX uses the NGK sensor these days which will handle higher temps and last longer if leaded gas is used.

The Bosch sensor is cheaper to replace but will not endure a lot of high egts and fail quickly in the presence of lead.  The NGK has come down a lot in price in the past year but is not as cheap as the Bosch.  The Bosch is not too bad on non-aspirated cars because the egt's are usually not that high and mounting the sensor down in the collector allows the gas to cool down quite a bit as well.

AEM makes one that does not have to be calibrated and some have had good luck with it.  Reviews are quite mixed as is often the case with such things.  I think it is one of the cheaper available and the reviews probably reflect this.

One thing that is important with all of them is to have a good solid voltage supply and a good engine or battery ground.  The Innovates were particularly bad about having ground offsets if all the grounds did not go to the same place on the engine or battery.  At least the instructions were explicit in this regard and my experiences bore this out.  The AFX that I bought recently said the same but it did not have as many wires to connect

Thanks for detail, Steve.  This helps a lot.

I see you referenced the Innovate LC-1 but I see mostly LM-2's being sold today.  I'm assuming the LM-2 is just the latest model.  Wondering if the issues you stated with the LC-1 might have been eliminated in the LM-2 model.

Also, I see the NGK-AFX kit on Amazon for $250 (I'm assuming it contains pretty much the same stuff as the Innovate models I've been looking at).  I'm sure other places they are quite a bit higher, but is that about the price I should be expecting to pay for a decent system?  I don't intend on mounting gages in the car or even keeping it installed (once I have it dialed in it's coming out).  I see the Innovate LM-s 3806 models down to around the same price on Amazon ($250).  And any comment on Autometer systems?  They seem to be quite a bit lower in price on eBay and I'm seeing several different models (model 4370 for $200, model 4379 for $190, model 5779 for $180, model 3378 for $270).

Again, thanks for your comments.

[cwestra]

I went with the 3844 MTX-L

I see them offered for around $200.  Are you happy with yours?

[Strawdawg]

Thanks for detail, Steve.  This helps a lot.

I see you referenced the Innovate LC-1 but I see mostly LM-2's being sold today.  I'm assuming the LM-2 is just the latest model.  Wondering if the issues you stated with the LC-1 might have been eliminated in the LM-2 model.

Also, I see the NGK-AFX kit on Amazon for $250 (I'm assuming it contains pretty much the same stuff as the Innovate models I've been looking at).  I'm sure other places they are quite a bit higher, but is that about the price I should be expecting to pay for a decent system?  I don't intend on mounting gages in the car or even keeping it installed (once I have it dialed in it's coming out).  I see the Innovate LM-s 3806 models down to around the same price on Amazon ($250).  And any comment on Autometer systems?  They seem to be quite a bit lower in price on eBay and I'm seeing several different models (model 4370 for $200, model 4379 for $190, model 5779 for $180, model 3378 for $270).

Again, thanks for your comments.

The LC-1 has all the electronics built into the cable with a couple of analog outs that could be used for logging and/or driving the fueling in closed loop.  It could also be used in a daisy chain with other Innovate devices.  When they work, they are neat but a pain in the rear to install with seven wires coming out of the bundle.  I think Innovate shut down their forums unless they have brought them back again.  Support was bad online and the forums were filled with problems.

I was using the analog outs to control fueling and the first one stopped one day at 28# of boost and I would have blown an engine except I had a audible detonation sensor installed and I got out of the gas in time.  This was a little over a year after installation.  The digital side still drove the gauge on the pillar tho.

In the mean time, I had installed another one on my other car and it failed about two minutes after I had calibrated it and was still idling in my shop.  After some phone Innovate sent me a new controller.  About the time I was going to suck it up, the first car failed on the digital side side and I gave up.  Not only was it a pain to install, I had seen too many similar complaints before they closed the forums.

The Innovate LM has all the electronics in the controller with the read out instead of simply the electronics like the LC-1 that requires a separate display.  I have the impression that the LM series did not fail nearly as often as the LC.  It is not nearly as compact but was a much better choice for one that was going to be moved.

Again, these things have to be installed well with particular emphasis on grounds.  Plugging one into a cigarette lighter does not work well.

The MTX is a newer/cheaper  Innovate offering.  It is strictly digital so it is good for display only but is compact and looks like there is much less wiring involved.  One of my Canadian friends was claiming they were supposed to be more reliable but I am not sure he has driven his car enuf to confirm that. 

I think I paid about $250 or maybe a bit less for the AFX.  My biggest complain is how long the wiring bundles that were included are.  The instructions are unclear as to how much, if any, the harness can be shortened.  They prefer it not be touched by customer service did tell me a little could be removed if I was careful in my work...seems like it was about 3 ft...or the calibration might be adversely affected.

I don't know anything about the Autometer models as they don't seem popular with the turbo Buick crowd.

The bung for the sensor goes between ten and two O'clock and can be plugged and will be largely out of sight once the sensor is removed.  The only hassle that I potentially see is the quality of the connections required for reliable operation.  I would read the reviews and take note of the problems mentioned plus read the install instructions and see what looks the easiest to use and remove if you don't want to leave it installed.

Back around 1999-2000, I built two widebands using kits from Tech Edge down in Australia.  There was a big uproar because they were basically a copy of the widebands being developed on the diy-efi board.  They still work....go figure

[cwestra]

The LC-1 has all the electronics built into the cable with a couple of analog outs that could be used for logging and/or driving the fueling in closed loop.  It could also be used in a daisy chain with other Innovate devices.  When they work, they are neat but a pain in the rear to install with seven wires coming out of the bundle.  I think Innovate shut down their forums unless they have brought them back again.  Support was bad online and the forums were filled with problems.

I was using the analog outs to control fueling and the first one stopped one day at 28# of boost and I would have blown an engine except I had a audible detonation sensor installed and I got out of the gas in time.  This was a little over a year after installation.  The digital side still drove the gauge on the pillar tho.

In the mean time, I had installed another one on my other car and it failed about two minutes after I had calibrated it and was still idling in my shop.  After some phone Innovate sent me a new controller.  About the time I was going to suck it up, the first car failed on the digital side side and I gave up.  Not only was it a pain to install, I had seen too many similar complaints before they closed the forums.

The Innovate LM has all the electronics in the controller with the read out instead of simply the electronics like the LC-1 that requires a separate display.  I have the impression that the LM series did not fail nearly as often as the LC.  It is not nearly as compact but was a much better choice for one that was going to be moved.

Again, these things have to be installed well with particular emphasis on grounds.  Plugging one into a cigarette lighter does not work well.

The MTX is a newer/cheaper  Innovate offering.  It is strictly digital so it is good for display only but is compact and looks like there is much less wiring involved.  One of my Canadian friends was claiming they were supposed to be more reliable but I am not sure he has driven his car enuf to confirm that. 

I think I paid about $250 or maybe a bit less for the AFX.  My biggest complain is how long the wiring bundles that were included are.  The instructions are unclear as to how much, if any, the harness can be shortened.  They prefer it not be touched by customer service did tell me a little could be removed if I was careful in my work...seems like it was about 3 ft...or the calibration might be adversely affected.

I don't know anything about the Autometer models as they don't seem popular with the turbo Buick crowd.

The bung for the sensor goes between ten and two O'clock and can be plugged and will be largely out of sight once the sensor is removed.  The only hassle that I potentially see is the quality of the connections required for reliable operation.  I would read the reviews and take note of the problems mentioned plus read the install instructions and see what looks the easiest to use and remove if you don't want to leave it installed.

Back around 1999-2000, I built two widebands using kits from Tech Edge down in Australia.  There was a big uproar because they were basically a copy of the widebands being developed on the diy-efi board.  They still work....go figure

Thanks, Steve.  Very much appreciated.

[dodj]

I see them offered for around $200.  Are you happy with yours?

Amazon has them for $168.00. Free shipping.
I went with the MTX cuz two friends have it, like it and recommended it. Simple install.
I have no running time with it yet.

[cwestra]

It's a toss up for me between the AFX Powerdex and Innovate LM-2 3837.  The Innovate system has a nice on-board data recording feature but I'm concerned about the seemingly inferior Bosch O2 sensor.  Are they really that bad?  Is the NGK that much better?  If I'm running rich should I expect the Bosch to go out on me quickly (like before I'm through testing and adjusting)? 

[Strawdawg]

the NGK is better if you run leaded gas or have high egts.  The Bosch will be okay if you run unleaded and are not pushing very high egts.

the further you place the sensor from the combustion chamber, the lower the egts so I don't think egts would be a problem in your case.