Clutch/Transmission Clunk?

[Tonker1]

Basic Outline
To start I have a 340 with an A-230 three speed manual transmission.
The short of it is there's a clunk coming from the clutch/transmission area, clutch peddle depressed no clunk, clutch peddle out it clunks and the transmission is being removed this weekend.

The full analysis.
When I start the car I have the clutch peddle depressed. When I ease off the peddle (regardless of being in a gear or neutral) a distinct clunking starts coming from the clutch/transmission area.
This noise has developed over about two weeks form a light clicking into a clunk. When I was initially trying to diagnose the source of the light clicking I tried depressing and releasing the clutch peddle a couple of times, the sound went from light clicking to louder clunking. I'm aware the sound descriptions are very subjective, but I'm concerned about starting the car again to make a recording. The car wasn't driven during this time, just periodically started for maintenance, like flushing the radiator and engine. The clunk occurs about twice a second at idle and increase in frequency with increasing rpm.

Currently
Drained the transmission oil, which has had at most 60 miles on it since I last replaced it. It was a glossy sliver similar to graphite. put my finger in the drain whole, it came back out covered in small metal flakes I'm guessing dimensions of 1mm x 1mm and 0.1mm which is 0.03"x0.03"x0.003". Those dimensions look quite small put into inches, but it is a sizeable flake.

Plan of attack
Remove the transmission for further inspecting and follow up with inspecting the clutch.
Does removing the transmission require removing the bell housing?
Is there anything in particular I should be looking out for in the transmission? As in any common places for internal damage in the A-230 transmission.
Does anyone have any previous experience with similar issues and what was the cause?

Cheers, in advance.

[73EStroker]

I would be looking in the clutch/throwout bearing area first. You still need to remove tranny and bellhousing anyway to do that.

[Changin Gears]

It sure sounds like a bearing let go in the trans.

And not, you don't have to remove the bellhousing.

[73EStroker]

Yes I agree with CG. My thinking logic was backwards. Based on what you say it definitely points at the gearbox. Might pay to remove the bell anyway even though you don't have to as it would be a shame if the clutch needed service and you had the box back in and had to remove again to do the clutch.

[Tonker1]

Awesome, a let go bearing is better news than I was expecting.

Can the bell housing be removed without removing the engine? I don't have access to a hoist or engine stand, but if they are essential I can make some calls and round one up.

[Changin Gears]

You can support the back of the engine with a jack on the oil pan, with some wood to distribute the load.  Just don't try to support the trans hanging off the back of the engine using this method.

Why are you going to remove the bellhousing?  If you are trying to remove the clutch, there is an access cover on the bottom of the bellhousing.

[slsc98]

Tonker1,

I hope you get your challenge diagnosed and resolved asap and, I'll also be following this thread with interest as a tapping very similar to what you describe has just presented itself in my car.  A friend helped me pull the trans out this past Fall when I discovered whomever had dropped the big block in the car one owner ebfore me did not at the same time switch the front bearing retainer on the originally small block trans input shaft (as in, up to the correct size OD", to fit inside the bellhousing's rear opening ID").

I replaced the clutch etc. at the same time and, reading this thread, I've been holding out hope my problem is just the throwout bearing (even though it to is new) and not internal to the trans itself. I am keeping my fingers crossed while I wait for a precious few mechanics I know and trust in my Southern MD area to have an opening for me (everyone is sooo d*mn busy, of late!)

Bottom line: if it is anything trans-related, I am running, not walking, to deal with Brewers Performance; they are truly THE MOPAR A833 4-SPEED TRANSMISSION & COMPONENT SPECIALISTS!: http://www.brewersperformance.com/

[Tonker1]

Transmission and clutch are out and slsc98, I hope this helps!

First thing I noticed was something had eaten away at the metal on the end of the retainer (photo).

Transmission
If you have audio; watching the video will be way easier to interpret than my written explanation. Those pieces which I refereed to as toggles are actually called 'struts' and they are for sale on Passon Performance
https://www.passonperformance.com/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=22

If' you don't have audio: Spent a while checking all of the gear surfaces and couldn't find any issues until I spotted some large metal chunks in floating in oil in the base of the transmission. Turns out one of the three 'struts' (what I called a toggle in the video) from behind the sleeves is missing. It looks like the strut somehow came out and than got smashed into bits by the gears. Unfortunately the pieces of metal I can find aren't large enough to sum up to an entire strut. The only other strange thing I could find is the input shaft can be slightly wobbled up and down and it shakes the gears a little bit.

Video: http://s1161.photobucket.com/user/Tonker1/media/TrannyChunks_zps272ba3b8.mp4.html?sort=6&o=6

Clutch
The clutch plate is very warn, but the bearing works great. I'm planning on getting a Mcleod pressure plate and disc kit

Questions

1. What the would cause damage on the retainer and does it need fixing?
2. Do the chunks of metal look like strut shrapnel or do they look like they came from somewhere else?
3. Any ideas on how the strut could have come out?
4. Is that level of input shaft wobble normal?


Photobucket links
Retainer: http://s1161.photobucket.com/user/Tonker1/media/31Retainer_zps6806d0af.jpg.html?sort=6&o=0
Chunks: http://s1161.photobucket.com/user/Tonker1/media/32Chunks_zps1b7b12f7.jpg.html?sort=6&o=0
Good side of clutch: http://s1161.photobucket.com/user/Tonker1/media/28GoodSide_zps35480ddf.jpg.html?sort=6&o=3
Worn side: http://s1161.photobucket.com/user/Tonker1/media/29WornSide_zpse39ae749.jpg.html?sort=6&o=2
Worn side: http://s1161.photobucket.com/user/Tonker1/media/30WornSide_zps3c8c3622.jpg.html?sort=6&o=1

[Changin Gears]

It looks like about half of the bearing retainer, where the throw-out bearing rides, is gone. Should be a couple inches longer.  Looks like the throw out bearing was riding on the input shaft.  This was probably the clunk you were hearing.

The struts are a critical part of the synchronizer assembly.  Haven't ever broke one, but you will need to at least partially disassemble the trans to install a new one (you probably want to anyway to see if anything else is broken).

That wobble on the input shaft is normal.

[slsc98]

Four points:

1) Holy sh*t, Batman!
2) Excellent photos (talk about helping the folks her in the know [not me] help you!)
3) Holy cr*p, Robin!
4) *If* the casting number on your retainer is C94796 I may have the replacement part you need.  I was gonna try and sell it but, you obviously NEED it very badly.   Let me know and I'll try and get it out to you in the mail, asap.  (I don't 'think that damage can be 'repaired' and, even if it could, I don't know if I would want to . . . ?)

ONE VERY IMPORTANT NOTE; however; PM's are very difficult for me to communicate through as my ability to get to the forums can be spotty during the work week.  *If* this Cast #C94796 is, in fact, the replacement part you need, drop me a message (only between 0900 and 1700 hours, EST, PLEASE) at: (two 4 zero) eight 3 two - six 9 nine 4

BEARING RETAINER 4.354" DIAMETER 23 SPLINE CAST IRON
Cast #C94796
This is an original retainer cast iron bearing retainer for 1964-7 B-body, 1964-1975 A-body, and 1970-up E-body small block 23 spline transmissions with 307 front bearing, 4.354" outside diameter, 3.70" bolt circle, replaces.
No Gasket and seal not included.
(I only had it up for sale as I had to switch up a size when my car had a big block installed.)

[Tonker1]

The transmission is now dissembled, so far it looks like I'll need a $200-300 of replacement parts to repair it. So now I'm waying up my options of
1. rebuild the A-230
2. Get a Passon rebuilt 23 spline 4speed
3. Get a Brewers rebuilt 23spline 4 speed

I've started a new thread on which company does the better quality rebuild: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=92076.0

I'll call both companies in couple of hours for some more information.

Slsc98, I appreciate the offer, but since I'm probably going to replace the A-230 with a complete A-833, I wont have any need for the retainer, good luck with selling it.

[slsc98]

Slsc98, I appreciate the offer, but since I'm probably going to replace the A-230 with a complete A-833, I wont have any need for the retainer, good luck with selling it.

De Nada, man. Best o' success and, let me know if anything changes and you need it mailed to you (I am not exactly 'motivated' as far as selling it or anything).

I'm heading over now to the other thread you've started, comparing tranny rebuilders, with piqued interest!

[Tonker1]

Okay, so another possible cause for transmission damage.

I'm aware that the transmission input shaft should fit snug into the brass bushing in the crankshaft. In the linked video I have placed the input shaft into the bushing and it is clear that there is a lot of room for the input shaft to wobble around. When Force is applied the bearing itself does not seem to move. Further suggesting worn away metal.

There are two possible causes for this, one, the brass bushing has been worn and now has a larger internal diameter or two, the input shaft has been worn and now has a smaller diameter. My vernier calipers won't reach into the brass bushing so I measured the diameter of the input shaft at the bearing interface and got 0.745".

Is that the correct correct size? I can't find any measurements for what it should be

Thanks in advance

http://s1161.photobucket.com/user/Tonker1/media/InputShaftWobble_zps7282f898.mp4.html?sort=6&o=1

[Chryco Psycho]

Definatly replace the pilot bushing in the rear of the crank , you can use the Dakota roller brg instead .
 Nothing to choose between Passon & Brewers , I have a ton of respect for Passon for taking on advancing the A833 with the new OD 4 spd version with heavy internals & now the 5 Spd OD that will fit where the 4 spd fits , I have done a lot of business with Passon & the sefrvice has been excellent . Brewers is easily as good to deal with & with product knowledge but just services the orignal 833s etc .