Author Topic: 70 Cuda 4 Speed Stroker Swap (Read 5551 times)

WildJones · « **on:** August 06, 2014 - 11:32:46 PM »

Well, I have put this off for long enough. Last Summer (2013) marked the start of the latest mini restoration project for my 'Cuda. What started as a small project to get the motor, steering box, master cylinder, and brake booster rebuild has turned into a full motor, transmission, suspension, and rear end swap, along with a couple other fixes along the way. It's been a fun year working on the car with my dad, and without his guidance I would have spent even more time here researching every aspect of the car. My dad isn't much of a forum guy, so I doubt he will ever see this, but thanks dad for all the help thus far!

This isn't and won't be a true documentation of the car, but I feel like sharing our experiences with other MOPAR folks. Plus, with a forum section dedicated to restorations, I know I can't be the only guy who enjoys following other's restoration threads.

Here's where we started:
- 383 - Thought to be numbers matching. Bad camshaft lifter causing a ticking while driving. Down on power. Previous owner had a blower on it and used to street race. Evidence of this throughout the car the deeper we got into taking it apart.
- 3 speed Auto - Original, as far as we know. Clunky shifting, would slip a little (if the car sat for a week or so) until warmed up. The auto always left me with a "numb" driving experience. In my head when I think of old school mopar, I see that gorgeous pistol grip shifter and think of banging through the gears. The auto never quite did it for me.
- 3.23 Open rear end. We had been discussing a 3.55 Sure Grip for a while at this point.
- Leaky Steering box
- Leaky Master Cylinder that was starting to leak until empty in under a week
- Suspension - Terrible ride. The car would wander all over the road. Loud clunk towards the rear when going over big bumps in the road.
- Dim headlights at night
- LOUD interior - Talking in the car while on the freeway required using our "Cuda voices" which meant you had to yell to communicate.
- Brakes - Minor, but we needed new front brake disks.

Here is some pictures of what the car looked like before we started taking it apart:

These were taken somewhat recently after what I like to call "Phase 2" of its restoration. Besides adding the hockey stripes and putting emblems on the car, I can't remember what else we did.

This is my first build thread that I have ever posted, so if you guys have any input or recommendations, please pass them on.

More to come�

WildJones · « **Reply #1 on:** August 06, 2014 - 11:53:59 PM »

Most of you probably fell into the same trap that we did; you start out with a small project and then before you know it you've tackled (or are planning to tackle) way more issues than you set out to address. So why the change? For us it was simple. Once we started tearing into the car, we realized that we still had our numbers matching motor. From there we decided that we were going to have it rebuilt, but not put it back in the car. I wanted something with a little more power, so we started tossing around some ideas. We found a 440 block locally that came out of '73 Challenger and snagged it up. We went from a mild 440 build to going with a stroker kit from 440Source after hearing decent reviews from Chryco Psyco and other members from this forum and others. Plus, someone made a very convincing argument; the price to build a 440 was just as much as it was going to cost to build a stroker. What I did not take into account was the extra cost that I would later spend when needing to purchase parts rated for higher horsepower.

Our little tired 383:

Highlights of the engine build:
- 440 Source Stroker kit .030" over with 17CC Dished Pistons
- 440 Source Stealth Aluminum Heads
- 440 Source Aluminum 1.5 Ratio Roller Rockers/Shafts and Aluminum Rocker Holddown Set
- Comp Cams Intake and Exhaust 10 degree Valve Locks and Dual Valve Springs
- Comp Cams Extreme Energy Hi-Lift .545"
- ARP 12 point bolts
- Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake
- TTI 2" Ceramic and thermal coated headers
- Mopar Mini Starter
- Milodon Hemi Oil Pan and Stroker Windage Tray
- Melling HV Oil Pump
- Lakewood Bellhousing
- MSD Digital 6AL
- MSD Pro Billet Distributor

Unfortunately the motor is still being built, so no pictures of it yet�

At some point after we painted the car, a guy that did some body work for us painted the engine compartment black. I have thought about getting the engine compartment painted while everything is out of the car, but I am unsure whether it is worth it at this point, especially given the fact that the car will likely need a new paint job in the next couple years...

WildJones · « **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2014 - 12:48:04 AM »

One of the first things that we tackled was the suspension. While driving down the road, the car used to wander around a fair bit. We figured that the bushings were worn and due for replacing. Surprise! To say the bushings were worn would be an understatement. In some cases they were even flat out missing. To remedy this, we ordered just about every Energy Suspension bushing and rebuilt the front suspension. Additionally, we purchased Moog Ball Joints and replaced those. We took the steering box to a local shop and had them rebuild it.

The car desperately needed new shocks, so we purchased RCD Bilstein shocks from FirmFeel. Thanks to Brads70's handling thread, I also purchased thicker 1.12 inch torsion bars and a rear sway bar setup from FirmFeel to match the stock front. I wish I had heard of FirmFeel when I had the steering box rebuilt as I would have opted for a Stage 2 or 3 box rebuild.

My goal for the suspension overhaul was to get rid of the wandering and make the car handle better. I am using my Mazdaspeed3's handling as my target goal. My dad wanted the Mopar Super Stock rear leaf springs to give it the "butt up in the air" stance, so this will hinder my cornering goals, but I am sure with everything else that we have overhauled it will be miles ahead of what it was before. We also decided to install US Car Tool's torque boxes, subframe connectors, and inner fender braces. This should help keep the body straight with the bigger motor and keep the car planted while cornering. Interestingly enough, the car already had front torque boxes of unknown orgin installed.

I wanted to give a quick shout out to the guys over at FirmFeel. They were extremely helpful and had great customer service!

Suspension
- Mopar SS Leaf Springs
- FirmFeel RCD Bilstein shocks
- Energy Suspension Bushings
- Moog Ball Joints
- FirmFeel Rear Sway Bar Kit
- FirmFeel 1.12 Torsion Bars
- US Car Tool Chassis stiffening: Torque boxes, Subframe connectors, Inner Fender Braces

WildJones · « **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2014 - 12:55:21 AM »

Last update for the night. I have tried searching, but haven't come up with anything. The center console has faint white lettering on it. It appears as though there were two switched that allowed you to select "phones" on or off and "speakers" on or off. Whatever equipment is supposed to be with the center console and those markings has been missing since the car has been in the family (almost 20 years now).

Any ideas?

moparman82 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2014 - 01:44:35 AM »

I've never seen that before, probably not factory

Chryco Psycho · « **Reply #5 on:** August 07, 2014 - 03:17:00 PM »

Looking good , you seem to have a solid plan for moving forward , I would paint the engine bay now , if you are going to repaint the car you will not have to mess with the engine bay later .
If you have not bought the rockers , I would suggest going with Stainless Rockers such as PRW , the cost will be similar to the alum 440 source but the quality is better . I would order pushrods from Smith Bros in Bend OR.
I would use a Melling HP pump but not a high volume as it can suck the oil pan dry .
I often mention that building a stroker is similar in cost to rebuilding a stock engine .
I assume you are going to a manual trans of some sort .
You can check with us here before you make purchases on the best value or performance for the $$ .
The Console looks like it had a headphone jack installed with switching from speakers to headphones , headphones always had the large jacks in the 70s

anlauto · « **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2014 - 03:46:46 PM »

Nothing about that console is factory original

WildJones · « **Reply #7 on:** August 08, 2014 - 04:18:51 PM »

Quote from: Chryco Psycho on August 07, 2014 - 03:17:00 PM

Looking good , you seem to have a solid plan for moving forward , I would paint the engine bay now , if you are going to repaint the car you will not have to mess with the engine bay later .
If you have not bought the rockers , I would suggest going with Stainless Rockers such as PRW , the cost will be similar to the alum 440 source but the quality is better . I would order pushrods from Smith Bros in Bend OR.
I would use a Melling HP pump but not a high volume as it can suck the oil pan dry .
I often mention that building a stroker is similar in cost to rebuilding a stock engine .
I assume you are going to a manual trans of some sort .
You can check with us here before you make purchases on the best value or performance for the $$ .
The Console looks like it had a headphone jack installed with switching from speakers to headphones , headphones always had the large jacks in the 70s

Chryco, Thanks for popping in, I actually wanted to hear your opinion on parts selected.

If/when I repaint the car, I am not sure I would stay with the same red. Next time around I was thinking of going with more of an orange red rather than the maroon red that it is now (and retain the metallic look).

The rockers were already purchased. I am hoping for good things from them. Our engine builder checked everything out and said he was impressed with the quality and that it had improved significantly in the years since he last built an engine using 440 Source parts. I guess that goes both ways for whether that is a positive or negative response, but fingers crossed lol. Thank you for the push rod recommendation, I hadn't figured those out yet.

Regarding the oil pump, I read the same warning that you just gave me numerous times, but this was the pump that 440 Source recommended (and he knew full well that this was going to be a street build, not a weekend race car). I have read that the spring inside the pump can be replaced to turn it into a HP High Volume pump. Would this be a viable alternative? I don't think our engine builder was planning on touching up the oiling (journals? passages? Still trying to learn, but whatever the passage way that helps oil flow through the motor is called), unless it was just implied, so does that also affect pump choice?

We had an E Body A833 sitting in the garage (Dad has a '69 Dart that was a 4 speed car, but why we have an E Body a833 is beyond me) that we paid a friend to go through and rebuild. It's sitting patiently in the garage waiting to go into the car.

Finally, bummer to hear about the center console. I agree, it does look like the old headphone jacks (1/4" maybe?). We were both hoping it was some sort of rare option, but I guess it is just as well it isn't; now I won't feel guilty about removing the center console from the car

Chryco Psycho · « **Reply #8 on:** August 09, 2014 - 09:13:35 AM »

The High Volume pump uses longer rotors , so a spring change will only affect pressure not the volume moved / rotation of the pump , you can enlarge the oil passages but really there is no need especially for a street build , I ran my 440 to 7000 rpm with the wheels in the air using stock oil passages but with a 12 qt oil pan baffled & the HV pump , never hurt anything .
You can use the same console with the 4 speed but you need a different front mount & top plate & it has to be trimmed around the shift boot on the lower edge of the console

WildJones · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2015 - 04:40:57 PM »

It's been long enough and time for a quick update. I will split this by sections.

Engine
My engine is almost a complete short block. Engine builder noticed that the connecting rods for the front two cylinders didn't fit on the crankshaft (using a 440 Source rotating assembly). They will make it work, but that was kind of a bummer to hear. No other hiccups (yet...). Swapped from the Milodon Hemi pan to the Road Race pan. I am planning on trying to make it to a couple autocross events each year, and the extra road clearance is a nice bonus.

I had a wakeup call on Saturday when I went to go see the motor at the shop. I'm second guessing myself a little and wondering if I should have built a 440 or rebuilt the 383 instead. I'm hoping the 496 isn't "too much" - I really do not want to have to ruin the car by welding in a roll cage, but I want to be safe at the same time.

Suspension
Sent my K member to FirmFeel for stiffening, straightening, and to be finished off with a coat of powdercoat. LCA's will get plates welded on for extra strengthening by a guy here locally who has helped me out a lot with the suspension. I bit and bought a new V2 Borgeson steering box. I was between a FirmFeel rebuild with quick ratio arms and the Borgeson box. The stock box always felt kind of numb in the middle and I am hoping the Borgeson box remedies that. Also, I purchased a set of Hotchkis UCAs from Amazon for a steal of a price. I'm hoping the benefits outweigh the hassle of setting the alignment with the heim joints.

Brakes
With a big motor up front, I figure I should probably upgrade my stock discs up front, especially if I am looking to improve handling. Cass @ DoctorDiff was super helpful in explaining my options. I am leaning on going with the Stage 4 kit. Regardless of Stage 3 or 4, I will need new wheels because I have 15s right now. Might as well just get Stage 4 at that point I guess. Stage 4 also opens up wheel choices a little by pushing the front wheels out a bit. Any opinions?

Wheels and Tires
I have the bug to try and go with a 295 square setup. I'm not sure if this is going to work with my car, and if not I will go 275 Front and 295 Rear on an 18 inch rim. As far as wheel choices go, I am a little torn. I tend to prefer black wheels, but I know my car looks great with chrome/polished aluminum wheels. On the flip side, I am NOT a fan of BIG chrome wheels (18s fall in the big category for me), and classic designs like the ralleye and magnum wheels look just weird, like their proportions are off. I will need to make a decision soon, as the motor should be ready to pick up soon, and the car needs to be on its wheels before I can install the motor.

Finally, on Sunday I did some quick painting of the frame rails while the K Member is out and noticed that my Passenger front frame rail is cracked where the rear bolt mounts the K Member. A quick search here makes me think this is a common thing, but I am still a little bummed. Dick @ FF noted that my K member had a pretty big dent on the passenger side that leads me to believe the two are connected. I will post a picture of the crack later.

daaboots · « **Reply #10 on:** March 11, 2015 - 08:59:27 AM »

Cool project. Can't wait to see that built 440!

WildJones · « **Reply #11 on:** March 13, 2015 - 01:24:29 PM »

Picture of the crack on the passenger side back frame rail. Noticed it under the rear k member bolt hole. Hoping to get it fixed this weekend or next week.
http://1drv.ms/1DfTH10

Apparently you can't link to photos from OneDrive. I'll add it to my photobucket later.

WildJones · « **Reply #12 on:** March 26, 2015 - 03:28:16 PM »

I bought a new Dash harness from YO late last year and have begun planning my wiring. Almost have the dash out of the car, but I have one more wire that I need to get out of the firewall before the dash can get moved. Its really stuck in its grommet and I was too tired to fiddle with it last time I worked on the car.

Since I'm making the jump from a 383 to 440, I need to purchase a lot of new parts for the motor (distributor, ignition box, carb, intake, etc). I am wondering if at this point it would make since to jump on a fuel injection setup? I was planning on going electric fuel pump and to upgrade my lines and I need the parts I mentioned above. I never learned to tune our cars' carb, and the easy hot/cold starts, plus extra mpg however little is tempting.

Can anyone point me in the right direction so I can educate myself about what all is involved in say a FAST EFI setup? I've heard great things about the Megasquirt setup, but I think I would be in over my head going that route.

HP_Cuda · « **Reply #13 on:** March 26, 2015 - 03:57:03 PM »

Wow when you started describing your ride I thought I might know where you bought it from but after seeing some other details it cannot be the same car. Ironic that you said it was running a blower before, that's what caught my attention.

BTW, when you got the car what color was it?

Keep up the good work!
B

WildJones · « **Reply #14 on:** March 26, 2015 - 05:09:40 PM »

Quote from: HP_Cuda on March 26, 2015 - 03:57:03 PM

Wow when you started describing your ride I thought I might know where you bought it from but after seeing some other details it cannot be the same car. Ironic that you said it was running a blower before, that's what caught my attention.

BTW, when you got the car what color was it?

Keep up the good work!
B

Black with red interior and I think it had a black vinyl top still. No stripes.

Edit: I'll bite, tell me about this other car

Author Topic: 70 Cuda 4 Speed Stroker Swap (Read 5551 times)

WildJones

70 Cuda 4 Speed Stroker Swap

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