Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?

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Offline brads70

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Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« on: October 25, 2014 - 08:48:00 AM »
I've read on a few  posts here and on other forums about decreased turning radius with this swap? Any thoughts?
I ask as I'm considering building my own K-Frame using a Mustang based rack
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0




Offline Travis72

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2014 - 12:31:24 PM »
Yes, the turning radius sucks.  It's much worse than even my 3/4 ton Ram truck!  Makes navigating tight areas a pain.

Travis
72 Cuda

Offline brads70

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2014 - 02:08:10 PM »
Yes, the turning radius sucks.  It's much worse than even my 3/4 ton Ram truck!  Makes navigating tight areas a pain.

Travis
72 Cuda

Hummm any idea who's/what rack they use?
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2014 - 04:17:44 PM »
2 ways to solve that , you either need a rack with more travel side to side or you need to move the tie rod connection closer to the ball joint centers

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Offline thedodgeboys

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2014 - 04:20:21 PM »
Hummm any idea who's/what rack they use?


Its pretty much a stock Mustang II rack the width is 24.5 I blew a seal in mine so I swapped it out with this one P/N: 090221 from http://www.detroitspeed.com/Steering/090220-detroit-tuned-steering-rack.html

I do think this other one P/N: 090220  would help increase the turning radius but I wasn't prepared to build new mounting tabs and risk messing with geometry and such.


'Detroit Tuned' Steering Rack

Detroit Speed’s rack and pinions have been optimized to provide an exceptional modern performance feel on the street and on the track and are available in both standard and narrow widths. The standard width is 24.5” and the narrow width being 21.5”. This is one of the only racks with a 21.5” width in the aftermarket industry!

• ‘Detroit Tuned’ valving specifically to provide the increased effort and performance feel found in late model performance vehicles.
• All new components
• Every rack undergoes a rigorous quality check and is performance tested prior to being packaged.
• Includes polyurethane mounting bushings.
• Features an internal, inner tie rod boot balance tube.
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Offline brads70

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2014 - 04:32:48 PM »
2 ways to solve that , you either need a rack with more travel side to side or you need to move the tie rod connection closer to the ball joint centers


More travel is the better option, moving the tie rod effects the bumpsteer . I have been looking at Flamming River racks. They advertise more travel than a stock stang rack.
http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0014/s0005/FR40022PLN
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline brads70

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2014 - 04:36:11 PM »
Its pretty much a stock Mustang II rack the width is 24.5 I blew a seal in mine so I swapped it out with this one P/N: 090221 from http://www.detroitspeed.com/Steering/090220-detroit-tuned-steering-rack.html

I do think this other one P/N: 090220  would help increase the turning radius but I wasn't prepared to build new mounting tabs and risk messing with geometry and such.


'Detroit Tuned' Steering Rack

Detroit Speed’s rack and pinions have been optimized to provide an exceptional modern performance feel on the street and on the track and are available in both standard and narrow widths. The standard width is 24.5” and the narrow width being 21.5”. This is one of the only racks with a 21.5” width in the aftermarket industry!

• ‘Detroit Tuned’ valving specifically to provide the increased effort and performance feel found in late model performance vehicles.
• All new components
• Every rack undergoes a rigorous quality check and is performance tested prior to being packaged.
• Includes polyurethane mounting bushings.
• Features an internal, inner tie rod boot balance tube.


Thanks Scott!  :2thumbs:   I've looked at these too but they don't say what the travel is? The narrow width version would work better with a Chevy based geometry , depending on where the steering arms/tie rod was at.
How do you find the turning radius?
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline thedodgeboys

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2014 - 04:52:06 PM »
Thanks Scott!  :2thumbs:
How do you find the turning radius?

Adequate  and if I'm in a tight spot  :burnout: I just add a little more gas  :bigsmile:
Go Fast & Have Fun...
70 6.1 HEMI 6-speed Drop Top...

Offline brads70

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2014 - 04:59:15 PM »
Adequate  and if I'm in a tight spot  :burnout: I just add a little more gas  :bigsmile:

You would make a great Canadian winter driver then! We steer with the rear end all the time!  :aarg: :roflsmiley:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline thedodgeboys

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2014 - 06:20:58 PM »
You would make a great Canadian winter driver then! We steer with the rear end all the time!  :aarg: :roflsmiley:

Beauty Eh   :canada:
 :woo:
Go Fast & Have Fun...
70 6.1 HEMI 6-speed Drop Top...

Offline GoodysGotaCuda

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2014 - 11:02:05 PM »
More travel is the better option, moving the tie rod effects the bumpsteer .

The bump steer could be shimmed out, you would have to have to change the height vertically a decent amount to not be able to shim the rack or tie rod enough to mitigate the bump steer..

Moving the tie-rod pickup more toward the steering axis willl primarily effect ackermann, which will effect the cars performance pretty drastically in some cases depending on the conditions, speed, tires, weight [slip angle generated]. It will also increase steering effort. I'm not familiar if it's just a generic tie rod taper, but shimming the tie rod in the Y-axis will affect ackermann as well and might be able to get you a little more inside tire turning.

What's your scrub radius at Brad? What about front and rear track? Differential selection can effect low speed turning as well. If you have a locker or real tight limited slip, it'll push the car at low speeds with high steering angle.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014 - 11:05:58 PM by GoodysGotaCuda »
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Offline brads70

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2014 - 08:16:58 AM »
Not sure on the scrub radius , It's positive ( heading towards the outside of the car.) but I've never measured it. rims are 11 wide and 5" backspace . The plan with the new K-Frame is to lower the LCA pick up points  for clearance for a rack(oil pan) and to get the lower ball joint and the pivot point closer to being level. Right now there is 2" difference. (roll centers) It's going to be front steer.   Also will be using double splined sway bars ( circle track parts)  I just bought 2 different sizes , just waiting on shipping.  I also picked up another set of spindles from another circle track buddy. Winter projects.... heck winter has to be good for something right?  :lol:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline brads70

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2014 - 11:03:16 PM »
Scott, was the Detroit speed rack a direct bolt in for the stock Mustang rack? Like flaming river screws around with the input shaft so you have to buy there overpriced parts to hook it up. They are out for that reason with me.

Just found the specs on the Detroit speed rack looks like they only have 5.5" travel? Mustang is usually 6" Do you notice an issue with the turning radius?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014 - 11:39:13 PM by brads70 »
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline thedodgeboys

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2014 - 06:40:46 PM »
Scott, was the Detroit speed rack a direct bolt in for the stock Mustang rack? Like flaming river screws around with the input shaft so you have to buy there overpriced parts to hook it up. They are out for that reason with me.

Just found the specs on the Detroit speed rack looks like they only have 5.5" travel? Mustang is usually 6" Do you notice an issue with the turning radius?

Brad Its a direct swap no issues.

I dont have enough miles to answer that, I will have to check on the travel  :clueless:
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Offline brads70

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Re: Alterktion Swap - turning radius issue?
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2014 - 06:49:02 PM »
Thanks, still not sure what/who's rack to go with. I guess I'll wait and see what Bill Reilly comes up with?
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0