Author Topic: Interesting front end geometry program  (Read 2192 times)

Offline brads70

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Interesting front end geometry program
« on: November 08, 2014 - 08:29:02 PM »
Brads70

Dimensions are not accurate....
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0




Offline brads70

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Re: Interesting front end geometry program
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2014 - 06:14:32 PM »
After a few hours measuring and inputting I came up with this. Brads70 cup spindles
It seems Mopar roll centers are about 16" plus  :eek4:  To change that I lowered the LCA mounting points and use a taller spindle.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014 - 06:25:57 PM by brads70 »
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline HP2

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Re: Interesting front end geometry program
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2014 - 10:47:29 PM »
Hmm. something seems off on your first slide.

Went I input the all the original pick up points on my car using the OEM alignment specs, ride height in particular, I came out with an 8.25 roll center height. Snapshot of that below.



When I dropped the chassis down  to my preferred ride height ( the lower control arms pivot points level) and pretty mild -.5* camber, I dropped the roll center down to 5.53".  Slide below of where I'm at currently with a 26" tall tire.



This is using the stock E body disc spindles. I was originally thinking of swapping to FJM spindles for the additional height,  but based on my previous experience, that would raise the roll center a few inches higher. I even got a bit excited about the prospect of these aftermarket spindles once you dug up the original manufacturer, just because it would be a nice option if everything stacks up correctly.  However, without doing the work to see where my rear roll center falls, I'm reluctant to just swap the spindles.  My thought being that the raised roll  center height up front isn't necessarily good or bad, but without knowing what sort  of moment arm it creates to the roll axis, I don't want to start experimenting until I can get the car off the jack stands, consistently running, and and turn some skid pads laps to create a baseline.

I'm also taking a bit of an unorthodox approach to being able to lower the car further; I'm raising the engine and trans mount somewhere between  .5 to .625. The thought being that if I can get the oil pan and headers up outta the dirt, then I can drop the body of the car lower which is going to drop my inner pivot points for the lower control arms, creating new instant centers. But, its all just mental gymnastics right now. My first priority is getting the dang thing running again.

Offline brads70

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Re: Interesting front end geometry program
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2014 - 12:03:15 AM »
Yes the first slide is totally out to lunch, just a link to the program.
I thought the program was pretty cool in that you can quickly change various elements such as spindle heights, control arm lengths etc... and see how it effects things like camber gain, roll centers etc... You can also drag/set the chassis to different angles to see what happens, you can adjust it for different size rims/tires/offsets , scrub radius, etc...
For example, I used it to see if it was worth the effort to use later/longer B-Body LCA's and change the pick up points , but it was not a big improvement.  Not an all inclusive program by any means but helpful I thought.... and free!
My issue is I can't lower the chassis enough to get the LCA level , so moving the LCA mounts is an option.
I found with this program the easiest way to change roll centers is to move the LCA points down ( down lowers the RC) I'm planning on building a K-Frame with serrated mounts to adjust this. Moving this down also should give me room for a rack under the oil pan.( front steer) This possibly would also require moving the torsion bars down to. I have a design in mind for making them adjustable too. Of course the rack mounts will also be adjustable too.
I have a couple sizes of Schroeder double splined sway bars/arms being shipped too. Should be here any day now.

http://pitstopusa.com/i-5055052-ub-machine-serrated-steel-plate-2-x-6-w-3-4-slot.html ( cut them in half to make two out of each)
http://pitstopusa.com/i-5055051-ub-machine-serrated-steel-block-w-sides-3-4-hole.html
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014 - 12:22:48 AM by brads70 »
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline GoodysGotaCuda

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Interesting front end geometry program
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2014 - 06:44:04 AM »
I used optimum kinematics for designing the suspension on the formula Sae car. Definitely watch just throwing components around, inducing roll center migration in roll/heave, bump steer, etc isn't hard to do.


Be sure to cycle the suspension/chassis height and angle before changing anything to watch what your changes did.

One change in a particular place for the better can make 2-3 areas worse.

I'd like to run some iterations on my Barracuda suspension, but am not comfortable doing it without precise chassis pickup point locations.


« Last Edit: November 10, 2014 - 06:49:31 AM by GoodysGotaCuda »
Build Page: Goody's 'Cuda Build Page
1976 Dodge Warlock
1972 Barracuda - 5.7 Hemi + T56 Magnum

Wheel & Tire Specs:Link

Offline brads70

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Re: Interesting front end geometry program
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2014 - 08:15:40 AM »
optimum kinematics  sure is an expensive program! Looks good though.  I've been researching various computer programs. Most are Chevy circle track based so it seems. This one looks "OK" ?  http://performancetrends.com/SuspAnzr.htm
It's fun learning though! :2thumbs:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline HP2

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Re: Interesting front end geometry program
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2014 - 12:08:32 PM »
Optimum Kinematics looks like a pretty heavy duty engineering level program and is priced like it too. But, get developing engineers hooked with it early and they will want to stick with it throughout their careers. Smart move to offer free/discounted student packages.

I know a number of guys on protouring.com use the Performance Trends packages and like them pretty well, but then again 80% of the guys over there are building chevys and 905 them are buldign 1st gen Camaros which have astoundingly bad geometry. I'd imagine the proliferation of chevy based, stock stub race cars means most/all these programs adapt to chevys very well. Others makes, maybe not as well.

The Autoware program I have does have pre-programed components for chevy stubs, but they also have the ability to input strut rod type suspension like Mopar and some Fords, with some careful manipulation of the inputs. They can do any amount of iteritive testing and show all the instant center migrations, different gains/losses based on motion, bump steer changes, and so forth. Overall its a pretty nice package that is plenty powerful for a hobbiest like myself.  It sure beats drawing it all out on paper like I used to do back when I was racing. They also are very price concious packages that are around $125, but would require seperate front and rear programs for a full package which then puts them in the same price range as some of the Performance Trends stuff.