Burning oil/ could it be valve seals or guides

[Kevin71]

Well here goes.  I got a crate motor couple of years ago.  It was dynoed with a carb before I got so they sent me me a dry one to mount.  Took it to a mechanic because I couldn't get it running.  Drove a little 1500 miles maybe.  But had been having vibration issues I was trying to work out.  So I pull in one day oil pressure drops to zero.  Shut off, drained the oil.  Had a quart in it maybe.  Some small metal shavings.  Very little.  So I tow it to a different mechanic and ask him to take a look at and see if he things the motor will be alright.  He thinks we ought to pull completely down check it over.  Ok Couldn't find anything wrong but put new crank and rod bearings, honed the cylinders, put new rings in.  Same size rings and bearings as what came out.  Sent block over had washed out.  Had machine shop check tolerences on cam bearings, couldn't find anything wrong. In the mean time he believes what happend was the carb 850 quick fuel on a 522 stroker, was running way to rich and washing down the cylinder walls causing blow by in the oil pan and blew the oil out running it dry.  So he takes out I think 94 jets and drops in I think about 85 size jets.  Cranks it up and it burning oil.  He is not sure if the rings are seated.   They didn't pull the heads apart and check the valve seals and guides.  I am thinking if the rings are not seated I would get alot of blow by, doesn't seem to be happening, But if the last thing to get oil when it went dry would have been the rockers wouldn't it.  He doesn't think it would be burning this much oil if it was the seals.  Could the valve guides and seals be bad.  I had a honda motorcycle years ago that I rebuilt several times and always amazed how quick the valve seals would harden if it overheated.  The only upside he is fed up asked to me to pick up the car and is not charging me anything.  I think that is a good thing.  Been a mechanic for 20 years and never had this problem but never worked on mopars.  He is stumped.  SO ALL I WANT FOR CHRISTMAS IS MY MOPAR.  At least it will be back in my garage.  I had back surgery a 1 1/2 years ago and started having to take the work to someone as I just couldn't do it.  It's has been real frustrating.  I have basic mechanical aptitude and have tried to learn on my own.  I just don't know enough about all internals and checking to make sure it is all correct.  I can take a motor out and put back in.  But not to keen on cranks, pistions, rods, valves and know they are correct.   The biggest problem I always have is what they don't mention.  Like take the carb to someone and make it is jetted right.  I don't where to begin with that, but I sure might have saved some money and time.  It's 2 in the morning, I have been just sick about this.  I laid in bed for 3 hours and just had to get up and start making list of what I going need and trying to make a plan.  I have been waiting 3 months for this guy to tear apart and put it back together.   It's not a hobby any more it's my life's quest to see this damn car run right.  So any ideas or suggestion I would love to hear them.  Sorry about the long story I just had to get it off my chest.

[cudabob496]

Burning a lot of oil?
Rings neve seated properly
Valve guides bad
Intake valves drawing oil from crankcase, due to
poor seal between intake and heads?

Using that much oil on a new engine, and if not seeing lots of white smoke while driving,
I'd guess the intake not matched/sealed to the heads, or valve guides.  I lost a lot of oil
on a new engine once, and that was the issue.

[Kevin71]

It has RPM 440 dual plane intake on it.  Has the seperate valley tray.  Could the gasket between the intake and head be bad.  Not installed correctly, used the old gasket, or something like that.  I am going over tomorrow and going to crank it up and try to determine just how much smoke or oil burning there is.  I got a feeling it's alot because he sure thinks it unusual.   What would I do if the rings are seating correctly.  Tear it apart and reinstall?  If they are not seating could be the reason.  To big of a ring gap?  I am trying to picture in my head how a intake valve would draw oil from the crankcase.  It would have a bad seal allowing for a vacum around the stem to draw into the cylinder when the intake opens?

[cudabob496]

Yes, I have an M1 single plane on Stage VI heads.  Finally had to use the steel valley pan, and normal intake gaskets above and below
the steel gasket.  Of course,a steel pan gasket might seal well, if you use a lot of RTV.  Get a feeler gauge out, and chech around your intake
to see what kinda gaps you have. Or, just pull intake, and inspect for an oil trail, or a lot of black junk on top of some intake valves.

[Kevin71]

What would be a good gasket for the valley pan.  I just member that is was a like a thin piece of sheet metal.  Is there anything better?  Just use a bunch RTV?  It has the same heads and intake on it from before and it didn't do this.  So I am guessing that it will seal.  But then again these are a set of 440 source aluminmum heads.  I will take a feeler gauge around the edge and look at it real close.  One smaller area can cause a huge problem.  Maybe the prior engine builder had enough RTV in there to seal it even it if it is a little off.  but I will least be able to inspect and see what is going on with intake valves.  Thanks for advice.

[cudabob496]

What would be a good gasket for the valley pan.  I just member that is was a like a thin piece of sheet metal.  Is there anything better?  Just use a bunch RTV?  It has the same heads and intake on it from before and it didn't do this.  So I am guessing that it will seal.  But then again these are a set of 440 source aluminmum heads.  I will take a feeler gauge around the edge and look at it real close.  One smaller area can cause a huge problem.  Maybe the prior engine builder had enough RTV in there to seal it even it if it is a little off.  but I will least be able to inspect and see what is going on with intake valves.  Thanks for advice.

did someone modify the head valve guides?

maybe the old gasket was used, or intake not torqued enough, or not enough RTV used.
Won't really know until remove intake and pan gasket, and inspect for oil leakage.

[Kevin71]

The mechanic said he took the heads to the machine shop and asked them to look at them.  As far he knows they didn't even pull the valves out.  So I don't think so.  I got it home.  It's not burning to bad.  Some smoke out the rear more like a car with 100k on it back in the day. Smoked worse if you floor and not bad idling.  I plan on pulling the intake tomrrow and get started.  I'll keep you up dated.  If I see something odd I will take pics.

[onebadfish]

In a lot of cases there aren't any gaskets under or above the pan - only the pan. Use HYLOMAR as a sealant around the heads on both sides of the pan. Use RtV for the front and rear rails.

[Kevin71]

Where do  you get it.  I found it on line but oriellys or autozone don't carry it.  Is there anything else more readily available?

[jimynick]

The valve guide won't suck oil from the crankcase; it'll suck it from that supplied to the heads to lube the valve gear and you'll notice it more on deceleration when engine is causing more of a vacumn in the cylinder. The secret to ring seal is several-fold. Concentricity (roundness) is paramount, then there's the honing; it's generally accepted that a plateau hone- where there's a slightly rough surface that's smoothed over leaving sufficient depth of scratches to hold enough oil to lube and no more, yet still able to scuff in the rings. Then there's the ring material, cast, moly, SS or chrome and you don't want to use chrome rings- they rarely ever seat- ask me how I know that. I'd find someone to do a leakdown test and then you'll know- no more guessing and/or sleepless nights; nor to say, smoky trips, either. Something else I just thought of was to make sure the damn rings were installed correctly for both orientation (right side up)and gap stagger/end gap. There's some bedtime reading for ya! Good luck. 

[Chryco Psycho]

You can test the rings by doing a compression test then squirt in a small amount of oil if the compression rises the rings are a problem if not then the rings are OK .
 I highly doubt the rings are the problem unless they were installed upside down or in the wrong groove or with all the gaps lined up on one side.
Often the intake & head angles do not match well & it can leave a gap below the intake pulling oi; from the lifter valley , this is quite common  , I use a Fel Pro 1215 intake gasket kit which includes paper gaskets which I install between the intake gasket & head only & just run the intake on the pan .

[cudabob496]

The valve guide won't suck oil from the crankcase; it'll suck it from that supplied to the heads to lube the valve gear and you'll notice it more on deceleration when engine is causing more of a vacumn in the cylinder. The secret to ring seal is several-fold. Concentricity (roundness) is paramount, then there's the honing; it's generally accepted that a plateau hone- where there's a slightly rough surface that's smoothed over leaving sufficient depth of scratches to hold enough oil to lube and no more, yet still able to scuff in the rings. Then there's the ring material, cast, moly, SS or chrome and you don't want to use chrome rings- they rarely ever seat- ask me how I know that. I'd find someone to do a leakdown test and then you'll know- no more guessing and/or sleepless nights; nor to say, smoky trips, either. Something else I just thought of was to make sure the damn rings were installed correctly for both orientation (right side up)and gap stagger/end gap. There's some bedtime reading for ya! Good luck. 

and machine/hone with a torque plate on the head?

[734406pk]

This is a real heartbreaker. The. Compression seal of all cylinders can be determined by a compression test followed by an air leakage using a special gauge. If the compression seal of the piston rings and valves has been determined good, the next step would be to check the valve guide clearances and stem seals. At one time Dana Perfect Circle found 75 percent of all oil consumption complaints were caused by valve stem leakage, therefore coming out with PC stem seals. Your problem could simply be that the rebuilder neglected to install ANY valve stem seals, which will cause your problem. No one has checked the cylinder heads, possibly missing the problem. I suggest checking the stem to guide clearences and the valve stem seals. May be closing the oil leak. Good luck sir.

[Kevin71]

Thanks so much.  I got the carb off.  Got to get a set of tork sockets to take the intake off.  I am going down in.  Like journey to center of the earth at this point.  I am sure I'll make it back out with all of your help.  In the end the satisfaction will be worth all the heartache.  Besides I feel terrible when my wife looks at me so perplexed and can't understand why I can't make this work.  I don't know whether to feel stupid, mad, pissed off or defeated.   But in the end being stubborn I think will pay off.

[jimynick]

I'd do the leak down and compression tests before I tore it down or you'll be chasing the problem after having wiped out the trail. Just my