Author Topic: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside  (Read 50233 times)

Offline cjd automotive

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 109
    • The Shop
Re: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2015 - 06:16:00 PM »
Wanted to throw out a little info for those looking to do GenIII Hemi swaps.  I am by no means an expert, but have learned quite a bit from being a dealer tech, running a late model Chrysler repair shop, and doing a few Hemi conversions.

The GenIII Hemi from 2003-2008 uses a 36-2 tone wheel on the crankshaft.  Two different types of controllers were available, PCI bus for 2003-2005 trucks (non-MDS), and Can bus for 2005 car and 2006-2009 car/truck (MDS).  These are NGC controllers.  Either can be used to control any of these engines, but if you have an MDS engine and want to use it, you'll need an MDS controller.  The differences between the car and truck engines is basically the intake, timing cover, and oil pan.  These parts interchange.  The trucks use a different camshaft and tuning than the cars.  Because of the tone wheel count, only the 2008 and down controller can be used.  The 2009-up engines use a 60-2 tone wheel, along with much better heads and intake manifolds.  Camshafts are more aggressive as well as the tuning.  You have to use the '09-up controller on these.  Your transmission choices with either controller is limited.  The 545RE in the truck is big, and will support 550 HP max built.  The NAG1 in the car is relatively small and will support 800HP built, but does not have a slip yoke.  I normally use the 545 in Jeeps or older trucks.  A manual trans was offered for the 36-2 and 60-2 tone wheel engines in 2500 trucks, but I've never seen one and can't confirm it ever happened.  It did show up in service info (we got service info for a 3.5 Caravan that never made production).  The 36-2 engines on trucks and cars used a separate TCM until 2006, when trucks started using the blank 4th slot on the NGC for transmission control. 

You will need a VSS input depending on trans and year with the stock controllers.

You have options.  Option 1:  If your wanting to use the stock Chrysler automatic then you'll need to run a stock PCM with the theft disabled (only some PCI trucks did not have theft).  Option 2:  If your wanting to run a manual and keep the engine relatively stock, you can use the stock controller.  Option 3:  Holley EFI has a stand alone, plug and play controller for the 36-2 and 60-2 Hemi.  It is a self learning controller that can support as much horsepower as you can dream.  It plugs into the stock connectors and uses the stock DBW pedal.  It cannot control a Chrysler auto, but will control GM LE transmissions.  These can be built to 1000+ HP and installed much cheaper than building the Chrysler unit, or simply use a manual.  It is not currently able to control VVT or MDS, but I am told that is a software update that will be available soon.  The Holley controller can use an LCD dash, similar to a RacePak, that can be user configured for layout, color, and gauge display.  If the engine has a sensor, a gauge can be displayed.  The Holley controller has built nitrous control, boost control, water/meth injection control, and traction control through a separate module.  I sell this setup for under $1500, so it is a real option.

I'm not pushing one over the other.  I have built many a harness and programmed many a controller.  It really depends on your transmission choice.  As of late, I seriously recommend the Holley for convenience and tunability.  It can support any evolution of the engine and is almost idiot proof to tune for power, i.e. cam swaps, etc...



« Last Edit: January 01, 2015 - 06:31:07 PM by CJD AUTOMOTIVE »
Craig Scholl
CJD Automotive, LLC
www.CJDAUTOMOTIVE.com
www.STREETANDRACEPERFORMANCE.com
Jacksonville, FL 32220
904-400-1802




Offline diyhemi.com

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Formerly Yellowfin
    • DIYHEMI.COM
Re: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2015 - 10:57:20 AM »
Great info here, and I can confirm all of it with my research.

I was also able to locate a said 5.7 hemi 2500 ram w manual transmission online in Houston.  I wanted to copy the tune to segment swap on my automatic PCM. I also found a PCM from a truck like that on eBay.

CJD, I know you do this from a business standpoint so I totally understand if you did not want to share your wiring harness modifications, but would you mind showing us what you do?

I have my own schematic that I will post, but I wanted to fire my car up and get the bugs worked out before I posted the information. Thus preventing giving out bad info.

My spreadsheet cross referencing the connectors is complete however and accurate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1970 Barracuda Gran Coupe, gen III project (Cone Killing Cuda)

Offline Haddixj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 641
Re: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2015 - 12:16:53 PM »
so I have a question about this, our motor an 07 has MDS (I think) and if we end up with an 05 ECM do we have to get rid of the MDS on the engine? Isnt it something to do with lifters? Also if running a manual trans (833) do we still have to have a speed signal to the ECM? 

Offline diyhemi.com

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Formerly Yellowfin
    • DIYHEMI.COM
Re: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2015 - 12:39:30 PM »
The 04-05 truck PCM does not have the ability to run MDS, one of the pins used in mds serves a different function on the ram PCM. You can leave the mds lifters and solenoids installed, they will not deactivate cylinders without a signal bring sent to them.

As far as the speed signal, I use a Hall effect signal generator on the speedometer cable gear that sends a signal to an electric speedo. Or keep the manual cable for the factory speedo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1970 Barracuda Gran Coupe, gen III project (Cone Killing Cuda)

Offline roadrunninMark

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 116
Re: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2015 - 09:48:25 PM »
Sounds great so far YF.  Any chance you can make some device to use the stock gas pedal without changing to a cable driven throttle body (to save cost, or is it a wash?)?  2nd question, do you think it would be possible to use stock shifter and console with the newer trans?  I like the looks of old school (including stock gauges) with the modern drive train.

Offline diyhemi.com

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Formerly Yellowfin
    • DIYHEMI.COM
GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2015 - 11:06:41 PM »
You can do the hemi swap and look completely stock on the outside and inside of the car, with the exception of the engine compartment, obviously. Factory manually driven speedo and gauges, cable throttle, shifter etc when using an old school trans.

In 2003, hemi ram trucks had cable gas pedals and electronic throttle bodies. There was an interface box/module under the hood that converted the cable throttle pull into an electronic throttle position.

This box is key to using the factory Cuda gas pedal. Simply mount the 2003 hemi throttle interface under hood and attach your cable. Then you plug in the throttle body. This module is also used to push down 727/904 kick down linkages!


As far as the shifter, you could get as creative as you want modifying a stock shifter to pull/push a cable. The real heartburn is if you decide to go with the NAG1 transmission as it requires it's own special controller.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015 - 11:33:55 PM by YellowFin »
1970 Barracuda Gran Coupe, gen III project (Cone Killing Cuda)

Offline hemiken

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8785
  • Hemi-fied Mopar in Australia
Re: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2015 - 11:10:37 PM »
This whole thread is very very helpful for current and future customer cars :clapping:

Thanks you so very much Blake :2thumbs:
1970 Barracuda   (O^--^===|===^--^O)
1971 Barracuda   (O O {]{]{]|[}[}[} O O)
1970 Challenger  (O O [======R/T=] O O)
1971 Challenger  (O O ===== ===== O O)
I pay homage to the best Mopars ever built.

Offline diyhemi.com

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Formerly Yellowfin
    • DIYHEMI.COM
GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2015 - 10:19:07 AM »
More advancements today:

I now have the factory service manuals for LX and hemi ram trucks. There are so many options with these things so I will have to do multiple write ups.

I was also able to find the manufacturer of oem connectors, including the 4 PCM connectors. I have Chrysler and manufacturer part numbers. I found a website that sells the connectors as well as all engineering drawings for them!

http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=showdoc&DocId=Customer+Drawing%7F1326726%7FK22%7Fpdf%7FEnglish%7FENG_CD_1326726_K22.pdf%7F9-1326729-8

http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=showdoc&DocId=Specification+Or+Standard%7F408-8591%7FC%7Fpdf%7FEnglish%7FENG_SS_408-8591_C.pdf%7F9-1326729-8

« Last Edit: January 04, 2015 - 11:14:41 AM by YellowFin »
1970 Barracuda Gran Coupe, gen III project (Cone Killing Cuda)

Offline cjd automotive

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 109
    • The Shop
Re: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2015 - 11:03:49 AM »
Great info here, and I can confirm all of it with my research.

CJD, I know you do this from a business standpoint so I totally understand if you did not want to share your wiring harness modifications, but would you mind showing us what you do?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No big secrets!  I use the OE harness and unpin what I don't need and install OE plugs in the unused wire hole.  I use the OE harness for the quality of the wire.  If I need shorten or lengthen anything, I'll use pieces of OE harness, soldered and heat shrinked (the Chrysler heat shrink is the best you will find) in the same colors to help with diagnostics later if needed.  I have the advantage of access to DealerConnect and tons of harnesses laying around!  I like to use the PCI bus PDC modules to handle all the electrical needs of the vehicle, getting rid of the ancient fuse blocks.  So much better than any of the aftermarket fuse blocks.  If you need schematics for something, let me know. 
Craig Scholl
CJD Automotive, LLC
www.CJDAUTOMOTIVE.com
www.STREETANDRACEPERFORMANCE.com
Jacksonville, FL 32220
904-400-1802

Offline roadrunninMark

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 116
Re: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2015 - 01:50:07 PM »
I definitely want to use the NAG1 (with my old shifter and console, if I can) but I am still undecided to use a new hemi (which I would like to) or stick with the original 318.  I want the old school looks with the modern parts.  Keep the info coming!

Offline diyhemi.com

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Formerly Yellowfin
    • DIYHEMI.COM
GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2015 - 01:58:15 PM »
I definitely want to use the NAG1 (with my old shifter and console, if I can) but I am still undecided to use a new hemi (which I would like to) or stick with the original 318.  I want the old school looks with the modern parts.  Keep the info coming!

If you keep everything together, hemi and nag1, you will be fine by just keeping the tcm and wiring for the nag1. I actually have an extra nag1 module that I won't be using. Nag1 behind a 318 will be more complex

The headache with nag1 is mainly the vehicle speed sensor. They are in the rear differential on LX cars. The controller uses that input for shifting parameters


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015 - 01:59:53 PM by YellowFin »
1970 Barracuda Gran Coupe, gen III project (Cone Killing Cuda)

Offline roadrunninMark

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 116
Re: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2015 - 06:16:35 PM »
Agree with the new motor trans combo being easier.  I am sure I read that a pickup on the driveshaft works for the speed sensor.  I have yet to read how to retro fit the non slip yoke from the NAG1 to a 8 3/4 rear.  Someone has done yet by now but I can't find what was used.

Offline 3D

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Re: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2015 - 10:41:45 AM »
No big secrets!  I use the OE harness and unpin what I don't need and install OE plugs in the unused wire hole.  I use the OE harness for the quality of the wire.  If I need shorten or lengthen anything, I'll use pieces of OE harness, soldered and heat shrinked (the Chrysler heat shrink is the best you will find) in the same colors to help with diagnostics later if needed.  I have the advantage of access to DealerConnect and tons of harnesses laying around!  I like to use the PCI bus PDC modules to handle all the electrical needs of the vehicle, getting rid of the ancient fuse blocks.  So much better than any of the aftermarket fuse blocks.  If you need schematics for something, let me know.

Where are you getting the OE plugs and Chrysler heat shank from? I too have many harnesses but I use a moisture resistant shrink tube but they are very expensive!!!!

Offline diyhemi.com

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Formerly Yellowfin
    • DIYHEMI.COM
Re: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2015 - 11:23:02 AM »
Mouser.com


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1970 Barracuda Gran Coupe, gen III project (Cone Killing Cuda)

Offline cjd automotive

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 109
    • The Shop
Re: GenIII Hemi Tuning/Stand alone capabilities~ Need Help, everyone inside
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2015 - 09:40:42 AM »
Where are you getting the OE plugs and Chrysler heat shank from? I too have many harnesses but I use a moisture resistant shrink tube but they are very expensive!!!!

The heat shrink PN# is CBRAH070.  It is a from a recall, so it is cheap.  The connectors are from OE harness's.  LKQ just cuts the harness when they sell used engines and I take the leftovers. 
Craig Scholl
CJD Automotive, LLC
www.CJDAUTOMOTIVE.com
www.STREETANDRACEPERFORMANCE.com
Jacksonville, FL 32220
904-400-1802