ECU problem?

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Offline Topcat

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ECU problem?
« on: January 03, 2015 - 08:51:03 PM »
I put in the FBO advance limiter plate today and changed out the big spring per instructions.
Fired it up and it's still doing the same thing as before. Timing mark jumping all around.

Put back in the dual point distributor and she ran fine again.
Timing mark showed steady with light.

I have an Orange box I was using I bought from someone on Ebag.
Does this sound like it's the culprit? Or would be a ground/wire issue?

I don't like to buy things (another ECU) that don't solve problems if it's something else.


Mike, Fremont, CA.





Offline sassygreen

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2015 - 09:30:09 PM »
Older timing lights may not be compatible  with newer multispark capacitive discharge, MSD, style ignition systems. Timing chain slack? What is FBO? Copied from MSD:

Timing Fluctuations

If your timing seems to be jumping all over the place, check the following items:
•What kind of timing light are you using? Many lights have trouble reading the MSD's capacitive discharge multiple sparks. Dial back timing lights are not recommended. Try another non-adjustable light and check the timing again. MSD offers a Timing Light, PN 8990.
•Make sure you are not using Solid Core wires.
•Inspect the routing of the Magnetic Pickup Harness. It should be routed clear of the coil primary wires and plug wires. It is best to route it along a ground plain such as the firewall, frame or engine block to form a shield around it, or replace the Black magnetic pickup cable with a shielded Gray cable PN 8862, which has a ground wire on one end.
•Check the polarity of the magnetic pickup wires of the distributor. Reverse the connectors and check the timing again. For Analog ignitions the correct polarity is whichever orientation gives the most retarded timing. For Digital Ignitions the correct polarity is whichever orientation give the most advanced timing.
•On Chevrolet engines, if the timing is retarding inspect for cam-walk. This is especially prevalent on engines with a chrome or stock type replacement timing chain cover that is actually bowing forward allowing the cam to "walk", due to thin stamping. To check this, wedge something in-between the water pump and timing chain cover to keep the camp from walking. If this corrects the timing fluctuation, replace the timing chain cover.
•Worn distributor gear, inspect the distributor gear for excess wear or incorrect gear mesh if the gear is riding too high or too low on the cam gear. If correct the wear pattern should show the gear mesh in the center of the gear.
 

Offline Topcat

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2015 - 10:25:11 PM »
Older timing lights may not be compatible  with newer multispark capacitive discharge, MSD, style ignition systems. Timing chain slack? What is FBO? Copied from MSD:

Timing Fluctuations

If your timing seems to be jumping all over the place, check the following items:
•What kind of timing light are you using? Many lights have trouble reading the MSD's capacitive discharge multiple sparks. Dial back timing lights are not recommended. Try another non-adjustable light and check the timing again. MSD offers a Timing Light, PN 8990.
•Make sure you are not using Solid Core wires.
•Inspect the routing of the Magnetic Pickup Harness. It should be routed clear of the coil primary wires and plug wires. It is best to route it along a ground plain such as the firewall, frame or engine block to form a shield around it, or replace the Black magnetic pickup cable with a shielded Gray cable PN 8862, which has a ground wire on one end.
•Check the polarity of the magnetic pickup wires of the distributor. Reverse the connectors and check the timing again. For Analog ignitions the correct polarity is whichever orientation gives the most retarded timing. For Digital Ignitions the correct polarity is whichever orientation give the most advanced timing.
•On Chevrolet engines, if the timing is retarding inspect for cam-walk. This is especially prevalent on engines with a chrome or stock type replacement timing chain cover that is actually bowing forward allowing the cam to "walk", due to thin stamping. To check this, wedge something in-between the water pump and timing chain cover to keep the camp from walking. If this corrects the timing fluctuation, replace the timing chain cover.
•Worn distributor gear, inspect the distributor gear for excess wear or incorrect gear mesh if the gear is riding too high or too low on the cam gear. If correct the wear pattern should show the gear mesh in the center of the gear.

Not using MSD.
Mopar electronic ignition.
Engine has 500 miles. Everything is new.
Engine runs great on points.
FireCore wires.
Reluctor gap at .016.
Milodon oil gear/dist gear.
I'm at about 8 degrees or 10 at idle on points.
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline dodj

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2015 - 08:45:09 AM »
Orange boxes have a poor reputation, but I think you have a reluctor/pick-up problem.  0.008 is proper gap, not 0.016
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015 - 08:47:30 AM by dodj »
Scott
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Offline Topcat

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2015 - 11:28:14 AM »
Orange boxes have a poor reputation, but I think you have a reluctor/pick-up problem.  0.008 is proper gap, not 0.016


Thanks,

I think I know the problem now.
It's the reluctor gap.

Says here timing mark jumps around if too much gap.

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=6930885
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2015 - 04:08:23 PM »
As one of the earlier post said, check the polarity of the pickup wires to the ECU. Some of them are reversed, making the active edge of the rising or falling sine wave look like the proper pulses to generate extra coil firings.

This is a common thing when I'm wiring up mopar distributors to the GM 4, 7 or 8 pin modules for fuel injection applications.

Sometimes the extra spark will pop teeth off of the ring gear when cranking. Good thing that you are finding this right away. Make up a crossover cable with a trailer light harness connectors, then look at it with your light again.
You will have to adjust your timing after switching these wires so check it cranking with all of your plugs out first.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline BIGSHCLUNK

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2015 - 04:15:48 PM »
Mike I run an orange box and my timing mark is steady.... just for comparison.  :dunno:
70 Chally R/T Convertible- Yes she's really got a HEMI, no she's not a Charger!
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Offline Topcat

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2015 - 11:12:57 PM »
After I put in the electronic ignition, I'm getting back firing thru the exhaust.
some slight stumbling when accerating.
Yet it fires up better than ever.

Timing shows it's steady at 35 degrees total.
I have an exhaust manifold leak BTW.

Friend thinks I need to put a BB in the Vacuum advance.
Re jet the carb again up more and fix the manifold leak.

We put the FBO plate in a 18 setting for mechanical advance.
Filed the relucter tip and set it so it was a more even or close to .008 all around.
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015 - 12:25:15 AM »
Timing mark jumping all around.

I have an Orange box I was using I bought from someone on Ebag.

I don't like to buy things (another ECU) that don't solve problems if it's something else.

You really need to try another ECU too. I have lots of ECUs that I use and would never sell a good one on EBAY.
Just you saying where you got yours is suspect. Borrow one from somebody. Real Mopar guys will have 2 or 3 spares laying around.
I have big block distributors, all working from junk yards and I've never had to file reluctor teeth.
I though that you said that the timing was jumping around? If you don't want to try reversing the pickup wires, try another box.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015 - 12:33:22 AM by ShelbyDogg »
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline Topcat

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2015 - 12:27:04 AM »
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2015 - 12:46:21 AM »
I replaced the box as well.

Then you have to try a good working distributor with 2 springs, hooked to "manifold" vacuum, just to see if it changes.

There really isn't much to the mopar electronic ignition. Switching from points to electronic was the first thing I always did.

Is there another 440 mopar guy around that will let you try his distributor?  Even a points 440 distributor is easy to convert if you remove the pad and clip under the rotor and pull the top off, then change the plate and top off of and electronic one, then file the hole to hold the wires.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline Topcat

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2015 - 01:07:39 AM »
Then you have to try a good working distributor with 2 springs, hooked to "manifold" vacuum, just to see if it changes.

There really isn't much to the mopar electronic ignition. Switching from points to electronic was the first thing I always did.

Is there another 440 mopar guy around that will let you try his distributor?  Even a points 440 distributor is easy to convert if you remove the pad and clip under the rotor and pull the top off, then change the plate and top off of and electronic one, then file the hole to hold the wires.

Perhaps one of my Mopar friends can let me do a quick swap to see what happens.
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline BIGSHCLUNK

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2015 - 09:32:26 AM »
Perhaps one of my Mopar friends can let me do a quick swap to see what happens.
Stop on by  :bigsmile:    :wave:   :thumbsup:   
70 Chally R/T Convertible- Yes she's really got a HEMI, no she's not a Charger!
                                             [o o o o]
                                                  OO
                                                  OO 
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Offline Topcat

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2015 - 09:48:21 PM »
Sick and tired of the whole set up I went and bought the complete FBO system. 12 volts to the coil now.
I get a re curved distributor, a rev limiter box and bypass the ballast.
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline Topcat

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Re: ECU problem?
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2015 - 09:54:41 PM »
What spurned me to buy the FBO set up is because the original Electronic distributor that I bought on E Bay was a piece of Chinese crap.

Guy who placed the E bay ad claimed it was "ready to go" proven on his car. BS!!!
Mike, Fremont, CA.