Author Topic: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME  (Read 16657 times)

Offline brads70

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2015 - 07:14:08 AM »

Burdar, I'm in the process of adding the reinforcement plates on my LCA's, but what is the other mod? Any info/pictures on that anywhere?

Worth a look....  :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwes-SP8u4w&feature=share&list=UUqvjc-8llEE-JKNFYw30-NQ&index=3
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0




Offline burdar

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2015 - 09:48:01 AM »
I've read that while the stiffening plates do help, the area that needs the most attention is the area right around the adjusting blade.  The link Brad posted is a good one.  I did it a little different but the results should be the same. 

I put the arm in a vise and closed up the gap until the adjusting blade wouldn't move.  Then I backed it off just a little bit.  Finally, I had a small scrap piece of metal welded between the two sides. You can see the metal piece in this picture.
 

My Challenger has a very nasty noise in the right front when I go over a large bump.  I'm going to check out the LCA when I take it out of storage.  I'm hoping it's a simple fix.

Offline soundcontrol

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2015 - 01:37:16 PM »
OK, I see, never seen that extra piece before. I'll do that to mine also. Thanks!
/ Ken
Restoration thread: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=102525.0
topic=108917.new#new

Offline CUDA JAS

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2015 - 02:37:01 PM »
Thanks for the link.  That was some great info.  I think I wills tart there and at least have a better feel while I ponder my long term options.

I did the washer trick last year after switching to power steering...a big difference!  Took it form that over boosted lose feeling to a much more modern feel.  (I am actually going to go a little further and add one more washer to mine).

My next step would be to check the alignment and make sure it is a more modern set up.

Jason
74 'cuda 360/727



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Offline stinger

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2015 - 06:36:25 PM »
Worth a look....  :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwes-SP8u4w&feature=share&list=UUqvjc-8llEE-JKNFYw30-NQ&index=3

I think I got welder's flash watching this  :22yikes:
e
I boxed my LCA's ,tubular  UCA's, larger hollow sway bar, poly graphite bushings, larger ti bar ends,17" aluminum rims and performance tire. also did the ps pump shim trick. I'm running small block T bar's and cheapie Monroe shocks with a 440 auto and can take a good curve about 10 mph above the posted speed sign for that curve. not great but not bad either. next will be bigger bar's and better shock.

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2015 - 06:47:19 PM »
Echoing what has been said above, I would suggest checking the ball joints and bushings in the front end-and replacing as needed, and then put a quality set of radial tires on it plus a set of quality shocks like the Bilstiens on it...then if you want more, carry on with some more upgrades like larger torsion bars, etc.

Offline HP2

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2015 - 06:20:53 PM »
Go get some popcorn and sit back for a read. This is  going to be long.

So, bang for the buck updates...here are my thoughts. I'd proceed down this path using Firm Feel or Hotchkis parts as they can be bought one at a time to facilitate the evolving you car will go through. All of this is also predicated by having a solid, functional  system that  doesn't need simple repairs like  ball joints or bushings. If any of these are suspect, the very first thing to do is rebuild the suspension. $300-1000 depending on if you do it yourself of have a shop do it. If you have to do this step first, then  opt for the Moog  offset upper control arm bushings. Install these opposite the instructions to  obtain more caster instead  of more camber.

First is to create a solid foundation for all the improvements to work off of. You need to shore up the flex in the car to allow the suspension to do its job. As such, the minimal starting point for this would be subframe connectors or a set of torque boxes. You  can get as fancy with this as you want from basic 1x3 tubing to contoured connectors. If you want it to all look stock, the  torque boxes can impart a stock look that helps firm things up over nothing at all. I'd say these are minimum to start with  body bracing. You  obviously can add even more pieces in more areas to really step up creating a solid car, but you  need at least this first step.  Firming up the body also has the side benefit of reducing squeaks and rattles, allow panel gaps to remain constant, improving window seal and reducing wind whistle. Costs for this can be as low as $20 if you cut and fab and weld your own to a few hundred for custom fit contoured units that someone else installs.

Wheels and tires are obviously the biggest improvement you can do. They also are the most expensive single purchase of the entire process and will consume half your entire budget. So this would either be the very first thing or the very last thing I'd do. Typically I do them last. If you do them first, it will help some with grip, but it is still dressing up a turd as the systems underneath it all can make the 14"  tire set up feel significantly better while 17" tires on a tired suspension  will still feel floaty, wander, and  bottom out.  Probably will be even worse as most guys step up width in  addition to diameter, so you get the double whammy of bad suspension combined with wide tires that will make the wander even worse. So $2000 or 50% of the total budget for this update and it can be thrown in at any time during the process.

Along the same lines as tires are steering boxes. Again, first or last, but I'd do it last. Steering boxes don't do anything for actual performance increases, but they  do make a world of difference in road feel. They also are expensive as a Firm Feel  units will run around $500 exchange or the  ultimate box approach may be a Borgeson  box and related  hardware. This is a late model style box that will really change the feel but will also set you back $1000. That's 25% of your budget. IMO, I'd try the shim trick posted earlier and swap out the box  much later down the line.
If you go with the first two mods above as your first choices, then you potentially only have $500 to play with for the rest of the  upgrades. This is why I would tend to put them further down the list.

Aside from that, the very first thing I'd do is get a radial friendly alignment. While this  may need to be done again after some other changes, sometimes simply doing this entirely changes the  personality of the car. If you have a good shop, they  may have already done this, but odds are, they probably didn't. Ask for 2000 Mustang specs to simplify the process. These keep your  shop tech from being confused about the uniqueness of the mopar set up and putting  the OEM specs under, especially if they don't do custom work. OEM  alignments are  for skinny bias ply tires. Unless you are using Firestone Wide Oval repops, avoid  factory specs. If your shop does do custom work, you want  5* positive caster, -.5-0* camber, 1/16" toe in, or maybe  .08* toe in.  The reason for this is positive caster increases stability, creates more dynamic tire orientation during suspension cycling, and  helps increases road feel. The  negative camber also increases the tire's ability to stay in touch with the road surface, especially with softer torsion bars. The toe  minimizes wear while  keeping the tires as straight forward facing as possibly with all the  joints in the  steering system. $40-100 depending on your local shop rates.

After that, better shocks. Since you want a good handling street car and don't plan on racing, there is no need to get crazy with adjustable units. The RCD Bilsteins would be  great for this. $400 for this update. If you are really in a pinch, Monroe Gas Magnums can make do and can support  increased torsion bar rates under 1" if you go there later. These are only $100, but the Bilsteins are a huge improvement so I'd encourage you to  use them instead.

Next, a  stepped up front  sway bar. The tubular units are a nice step up in performance. $300 here. You can  add a control arm strap or plate to  help apply some of that force as well as the bigger bar imparts a  big increase in force on the lower arm. Compared to the stock  .875" bar, a 1.125" solid or  1.25" tubular  bar  is going to do a lot of controlling body roll in  corners and imparting a more confident feel.

Since you already have a rear sway bar, you can skip this step as normally I'd suggest adding one here.  New Hellwig and Hotchkis models can be adjusted to further dial in feel, so that is a nice position to be  in, but is not a requirement. This saves you a couple hundred bucks.

After sway bars, if you still want to  add improvements, then this is where some stepped up  torsion bars and leaf springs come into play. Moving up to 1" diameter  t-bars will match nicely with the previously selected shocks and provide a big step up in wheel rates that are much more late model in feel. Hotchkis does suggest 1.12 for their components and it certainly can be felt.  Torsion bars may be found as cheap as $200 but will most likely be $350+

Stepping up the front without a comparable step up in the rear will typically produce an unbalanced car that  understeers worse than  stock.  I'd suggest changing  leaf springs to match the torsion bars are the same time or  at least in stepped replacement with each other.  This is where the matched sets provided  by Firm Feel or Hotchkis are help full. There are several sources for these. Expect to spend around $400-500 depending on how customized you want these to be.

So there is the basic formula for a solid cruiser:
suspension rebuild $400
sub frames $150
alignment $100
Shocks $400
front s-bar $300
rear s-bar  $200
t-bars $350
leafs $400
Wheels & tires $2000
total  $4300

Obviously you will have savings if you don't need a  rebuild from start, have the rear bar, or pick up any deals along the way and this goes up if you decide to pull in steering box swap or substitute tubular control arms for items you don't need as part of the package.

Out beyond that are incremental improvements that are going to produce that Nth degree of feel that most drivers can't differentiate and certainly aren't pre-requisites for the biggest step up in improvements,  but can certainly help improve things further.  Among these would be  tubular control arms - biggest gain, extra caster, $400+. Some would argue that these should be part of the list above. I might conceed that if your alignment specs are really crappy right out of the gate. One of mopars achilles heels is the  lack of our ability to get decent caster numbers. Tubular upper control arms are built with extra caster in them and combined with different adjustment features and the stock eccentrics, can easily achieve 5-10* of caster . This is one part I'm  kind of torn on not recommending right out of the gate but it is really a variable  form car to car. 

Solid tie rod sleeves or stepping up to 11/16 tie rods- $200 for reduced deflection under heavy corner loads.

Welded K frames -$ is variable if you can do it yourself or have to pay. This falls under flex reduction which is always a good thing, but unless you're tearing your car apart, this is a tough one to accomplish without  putting your car out of commission for several weeks.

Pitman arm bearing/brace - $135, again, flex reduction and  more pointed steering response. IMO, thi s is a  decent upgrade if you never plan on welding up your K frame. This bolt in very easily on completed cars.

Ider arm bearings - $125, part of a smooth steering package.

Fast ratio arms - $300 this does speed up steering response. Great for low speed  parking lot racing or tight  confine parking, but not a prerequisite.

Adjustable strut rods or  fixed pivot  strut rods - $200. These can help fine tune caster and do help reduce toe changes under heavy breaking. Not bad things to have  and certainly necessary if you ever push the car through cone racing but not required for a cruiser.

Other changes like offset springs, drop spindles,  special brake compounds, so on and so forth get into the  how far and how hard do you want to push improvements or any individual quirks we have about having something we fancy.

So, my opinion on spending your money. I'm sure others  may agree or disagree. Your mileage may vary as well.




Offline john h

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2015 - 06:53:19 PM »
Go get some popcorn and sit back for a read. This is  going to be long.

So, bang for the buck updates...here are my thoughts. I'd proceed down this path using Firm Feel or Hotchkis parts as they can be bought one at a time to facilitate the evolving you car will go through. All of this is also predicated by having a solid, functional  system that  doesn't need simple repairs like  ball joints or bushings. If any of these are suspect, the very first thing to do is rebuild the suspension. $300-1000 depending on if you do it yourself of have a shop do it. If you have to do this step first, then  opt for the Moog  offset upper control arm bushings. Install these opposite the instructions to  obtain more caster instead  of more camber.

First is to create a solid foundation for all the improvements to work off of. You need to shore up the flex in the car to allow the suspension to do its job. As such, the minimal starting point for this would be subframe connectors or a set of torque boxes. You  can get as fancy with this as you want from basic 1x3 tubing to contoured connectors. If you want it to all look stock, the  torque boxes can impart a stock look that helps firm things up over nothing at all. I'd say these are minimum to start with  body bracing. You  obviously can add even more pieces in more areas to really step up creating a solid car, but you  need at least this first step.  Firming up the body also has the side benefit of reducing squeaks and rattles, allow panel gaps to remain constant, improving window seal and reducing wind whistle. Costs for this can be as low as $20 if you cut and fab and weld your own to a few hundred for custom fit contoured units that someone else installs.

Wheels and tires are obviously the biggest improvement you can do. They also are the most expensive single purchase of the entire process and will consume half your entire budget. So this would either be the very first thing or the very last thing I'd do. Typically I do them last. If you do them first, it will help some with grip, but it is still dressing up a turd as the systems underneath it all can make the 14"  tire set up feel significantly better while 17" tires on a tired suspension  will still feel floaty, wander, and  bottom out.  Probably will be even worse as most guys step up width in  addition to diameter, so you get the double whammy of bad suspension combined with wide tires that will make the wander even worse. So $2000 or 50% of the total budget for this update and it can be thrown in at any time during the process.

Along the same lines as tires are steering boxes. Again, first or last, but I'd do it last. Steering boxes don't do anything for actual performance increases, but they  do make a world of difference in road feel. They also are expensive as a Firm Feel  units will run around $500 exchange or the  ultimate box approach may be a Borgeson  box and related  hardware. This is a late model style box that will really change the feel but will also set you back $1000. That's 25% of your budget. IMO, I'd try the shim trick posted earlier and swap out the box  much later down the line.
If you go with the first two mods above as your first choices, then you potentially only have $500 to play with for the rest of the  upgrades. This is why I would tend to put them further down the list.

Aside from that, the very first thing I'd do is get a radial friendly alignment. While this  may need to be done again after some other changes, sometimes simply doing this entirely changes the  personality of the car. If you have a good shop, they  may have already done this, but odds are, they probably didn't. Ask for 2000 Mustang specs to simplify the process. These keep your  shop tech from being confused about the uniqueness of the mopar set up and putting  the OEM specs under, especially if they don't do custom work. OEM  alignments are  for skinny bias ply tires. Unless you are using Firestone Wide Oval repops, avoid  factory specs. If your shop does do custom work, you want  5* positive caster, -.5-0* camber, 1/16" toe in, or maybe  .08* toe in.  The reason for this is positive caster increases stability, creates more dynamic tire orientation during suspension cycling, and  helps increases road feel. The  negative camber also increases the tire's ability to stay in touch with the road surface, especially with softer torsion bars. The toe  minimizes wear while  keeping the tires as straight forward facing as possibly with all the  joints in the  steering system. $40-100 depending on your local shop rates.

After that, better shocks. Since you want a good handling street car and don't plan on racing, there is no need to get crazy with adjustable units. The RCD Bilsteins would be  great for this. $400 for this update. If you are really in a pinch, Monroe Gas Magnums can make do and can support  increased torsion bar rates under 1" if you go there later. These are only $100, but the Bilsteins are a huge improvement so I'd encourage you to  use them instead.

Next, a  stepped up front  sway bar. The tubular units are a nice step up in performance. $300 here. You can  add a control arm strap or plate to  help apply some of that force as well as the bigger bar imparts a  big increase in force on the lower arm. Compared to the stock  .875" bar, a 1.125" solid or  1.25" tubular  bar  is going to do a lot of controlling body roll in  corners and imparting a more confident feel.

Since you already have a rear sway bar, you can skip this step as normally I'd suggest adding one here.  New Hellwig and Hotchkis models can be adjusted to further dial in feel, so that is a nice position to be  in, but is not a requirement. This saves you a couple hundred bucks.

After sway bars, if you still want to  add improvements, then this is where some stepped up  torsion bars and leaf springs come into play. Moving up to 1" diameter  t-bars will match nicely with the previously selected shocks and provide a big step up in wheel rates that are much more late model in feel. Hotchkis does suggest 1.12 for their components and it certainly can be felt.  Torsion bars may be found as cheap as $200 but will most likely be $350+

Stepping up the front without a comparable step up in the rear will typically produce an unbalanced car that  understeers worse than  stock.  I'd suggest changing  leaf springs to match the torsion bars are the same time or  at least in stepped replacement with each other.  This is where the matched sets provided  by Firm Feel or Hotchkis are help full. There are several sources for these. Expect to spend around $400-500 depending on how customized you want these to be.

So there is the basic formula for a solid cruiser:
suspension rebuild $400
sub frames $150
alignment $100
Shocks $400
front s-bar $300
rear s-bar  $200
t-bars $350
leafs $400
Wheels & tires $2000
total  $4300

Obviously you will have savings if you don't need a  rebuild from start, have the rear bar, or pick up any deals along the way and this goes up if you decide to pull in steering box swap or substitute tubular control arms for items you don't need as part of the package.

Out beyond that are incremental improvements that are going to produce that Nth degree of feel that most drivers can't differentiate and certainly aren't pre-requisites for the biggest step up in improvements,  but can certainly help improve things further.  Among these would be  tubular control arms - biggest gain, extra caster, $400+. Some would argue that these should be part of the list above. I might conceed that if your alignment specs are really crappy right out of the gate. One of mopars achilles heels is the  lack of our ability to get decent caster numbers. Tubular upper control arms are built with extra caster in them and combined with different adjustment features and the stock eccentrics, can easily achieve 5-10* of caster . This is one part I'm  kind of torn on not recommending right out of the gate but it is really a variable  form car to car. 

Solid tie rod sleeves or stepping up to 11/16 tie rods- $200 for reduced deflection under heavy corner loads.

Welded K frames -$ is variable if you can do it yourself or have to pay. This falls under flex reduction which is always a good thing, but unless you're tearing your car apart, this is a tough one to accomplish without  putting your car out of commission for several weeks.

Pitman arm bearing/brace - $135, again, flex reduction and  more pointed steering response. IMO, thi s is a  decent upgrade if you never plan on welding up your K frame. This bolt in very easily on completed cars.

Ider arm bearings - $125, part of a smooth steering package.

Fast ratio arms - $300 this does speed up steering response. Great for low speed  parking lot racing or tight  confine parking, but not a prerequisite.

Adjustable strut rods or  fixed pivot  strut rods - $200. These can help fine tune caster and do help reduce toe changes under heavy breaking. Not bad things to have  and certainly necessary if you ever push the car through cone racing but not required for a cruiser.

Other changes like offset springs, drop spindles,  special brake compounds, so on and so forth get into the  how far and how hard do you want to push improvements or any individual quirks we have about having something we fancy.

So, my opinion on spending your money. I'm sure others  may agree or disagree. Your mileage may vary as well.
WOW! great write up.  thanks for taking the time to address this so thoroughly.  I do appreciate all the responses.  I have some choices to make and now I can map out a plan with a good understanding of what effects each change will have. 

Thank you
John
John
73 Cuda
360 Crate motor
FiTech Fuel injection
727 Trans (wishing it had Over Drive)

Offline john h

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2015 - 10:26:56 PM »
Check out this article.  This would lower your PS pressure and tighten up the steering.  A stage 2 or 3 box would also do it.
http://www.moparaction.com/tech/beep/PUMP_IT_DOWN-re-v1.4.pdf

Step 1.  Complete!    :wow: I did this power steering mod tonight.  WOW!  what a differance.  I used a 1/2" od washer and drilled it out with a 3/8 bit to get the ID correct.  the spacer I used was .054"  I was not using a pressure gauge.  (I only had 1 factory spacer in there) I put it all back together , got some new PS fluid in and went for a drive.  At low speed you could tell it was not as boosted backing out of the driveway etc.  At driving speeds it was nice absolutely NO floating feeling, and NO wandering.  I could possibly go a little more with no ill effects at hight speeds but I would worry a little about very low speed maeauvers like parking.  I drove as high as 75 MPH and it felt really good.  Now I will be happy with it for as long as I take to decide what direction I will go with my next steps.  For the 1 hour time and almost no money spent, I would recommend this modification.  It is a bit messy though.  But that's what floor dry is for.

John
John
73 Cuda
360 Crate motor
FiTech Fuel injection
727 Trans (wishing it had Over Drive)

Offline HP2

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2015 - 09:24:21 AM »
Hmm. Gotta admit I've never done this trick, but it does have merit.

However, I haven't used stock power steering pumps on my cars since about the mid '90s. I've always used compact oval track units with divorced reservoirs, so they have always had stepped down pressure built into them already.

Offline john h

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2015 - 01:43:44 PM »
Hmm. Gotta admit I've never done this trick, but it does have merit.

However, I haven't used stock power steering pumps on my cars since about the mid '90s. I've always used compact oval track units with divorced reservoirs, so they have always had stepped down pressure built into them already.
It's plenty easy to do.  If I had not already cleaned up the floor I would possibly do it again with a 2nd spacer to see how that feels.  My luck though, I would want to go back to this shim set and I would do it 2 more times.  better leave well enough alone.  Another comment I would make though... I have a rebuilt front end 2 summers ago using a Mancini racing Moog front end kit.  Also, my steering shaft /box has no extra play.  if those parts were worn out I may not have had as good of success with this modification. Next I will get the alignment as detailed above.  It was aligned at the time of the re-build, but I'm sure to the stock specs and for some reason the steering wheel is not centered and it pulls left.  (I won't be going back to that shop).

John
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015 - 01:45:39 PM by john h »
John
73 Cuda
360 Crate motor
FiTech Fuel injection
727 Trans (wishing it had Over Drive)

Offline anlauto

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2015 - 06:54:55 PM »
Just drove a 71 Challenger with a Firm Feel Stage III box this morning...All I can say is WoW... :clapping: It's like two steps above standard steering...really really nice
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Offline challenger_affair

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2015 - 02:15:02 AM »
On the topic of subframe connectors and torque boxes, something I wonder about installation:  In my mind, it makes sense that the car should be sitting on its wheels with torsion bars released when the elements are installed so you don't 'lock in' any sagging, arching, etc...  Am I on the right track? 

I thought about this when I see how much body flex there is when putting the car up on jack stands   :eek2:  Also I noticed the doors and hood don't quite close the same after having the torsion bars adjusted... 
1970 Challenger 383 RT Auto Plum Crazy

Offline HP2

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2015 - 10:07:27 AM »
This is one of those "it depends" situations.

Ideally, your car is apart and can be supported in such a manner to make it all level, plumb, and square before installation of connectors and other uni-body supports are installed. This ensures that the everything is mirrored from one side of the car to the other and produces repeatable and consistent results. Race vehicles are all built on surface plates to ensure this is absolutely obtained. To achieve maximum performance and benefit, we should try to do the same.

On the other hand, often many of our cars may have already had many thousands of dollars of restoration work done to them and are very rarely raced to a level with the "nth" degree of performance is paramount. As such, installing supports that do not alter already built in biases or cause damage to panel gaps or paint may be a bigger concern. In these cases, supporting the car on its tires in an "as loaded" street condition will allow the ability to firm up the chassis without causing any problems with panel gaps, window cracks, and anything else that could cause visual changes to a finished car.

So, if you are in the project stage, make an effort to level and plumb everything before you start. If your car is together, duplicate the road load ( set it on its tires) before beginning.

Offline challenger_affair

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Re: SUSPENSION AND STEERING UPGRADES A LITTLE AT A TIME
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2015 - 11:32:20 PM »
This is one of those "it depends" situations.

Ideally, your car is apart and can be supported in such a manner to make it all level, plumb, and square before installation of connectors and other uni-body supports are installed. This ensures that the everything is mirrored from one side of the car to the other and produces repeatable and consistent results. Race vehicles are all built on surface plates to ensure this is absolutely obtained. To achieve maximum performance and benefit, we should try to do the same.

On the other hand, often many of our cars may have already had many thousands of dollars of restoration work done to them and are very rarely raced to a level with the "nth" degree of performance is paramount. As such, installing supports that do not alter already built in biases or cause damage to panel gaps or paint may be a bigger concern. In these cases, supporting the car on its tires in an "as loaded" street condition will allow the ability to firm up the chassis without causing any problems with panel gaps, window cracks, and anything else that could cause visual changes to a finished car.

So, if you are in the project stage, make an effort to level and plumb everything before you start. If your car is together, duplicate the road load ( set it on its tires) before beginning.

I guess my situation is sort of in between, its not being restored now, and it never has been.  Its a driver.  So theoretically I would be locking in any existing distress, even if its sitting in the road load condition.  I'm not aware of any issues specifically, but is there something a body shop should check or fix before installation?  or is not really worth that cost if there aren't obvious problems?  Thanks!
1970 Challenger 383 RT Auto Plum Crazy