Author Topic: Setting caster and camber  (Read 14394 times)

Offline GreenFish

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Setting caster and camber
« on: May 18, 2015 - 09:28:25 AM »
getting ready to install new UCAs (QA1) and I am looking for information on setting the caster/camber.  I ordered new bolts as well.

I would like information on deciding or determining what would be best for my driving style as well as how to set it.

Thanks
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI




Offline HP2

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2015 - 10:04:47 AM »
First, set the ride height where you want it and instruct the shop to leave it there. Emphasis with them not to use the stock specs. Caster you want as much positive up to around 6*. Camber should be -.5* to -1* for general street driving. Toe in should be set 1/8" to 1/16". I think this translates to around .08* with a 26" tall tire.

Justification behind this...positive caster increases steering effort which negates some of the over-assist feeling, aids in high speed stability, increases return to center tendencies, and creates greater dynamic camber changes as the suspension cycles. Negative camber allows the tire face to maintain greater contact with the ground while cornering and offsetting body roll. Minimal toe allows the slack in all suspension joints to be eliminated by forward friction and push the tires into as close a neutral forward position as possible, while keeping toe understeer  in a corner to a minimum.

The specs above are move inline with what a newer car would be using and will create amore stable platform for all types of driving. The only differences I'd suggest in those specs are if you are pushing the car hard in corners to maybe add 1* of negative camber, or if you are actually racing it in corners, to go to a static toe out condition. Toe out on a street car will make the car feel very darty and I wouldn't use it unless you are competing regularly and/or know how to quickly adjust it back and forth.

Offline GreenFish

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2015 - 10:11:46 AM »
Thanks HP2,  Great info
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI

Offline shadango

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2015 - 01:34:20 PM »
First, set the ride height where you want it and instruct the shop to leave it there. Emphasis with them not to use the stock specs. Caster you want as much positive up to around 6*. Camber should be -.5* to -1* for general street driving. Toe in should be set 1/8" to 1/16". I think this translates to around .08* with a 26" tall tire.

Justification behind this...positive caster increases steering effort which negates some of the over-assist feeling, aids in high speed stability, increases return to center tendencies, and creates greater dynamic camber changes as the suspension cycles. Negative camber allows the tire face to maintain greater contact with the ground while cornering and offsetting body roll. Minimal toe allows the slack in all suspension joints to be eliminated by forward friction and push the tires into as close a neutral forward position as possible, while keeping toe understeer  in a corner to a minimum.

The specs above are move inline with what a newer car would be using and will create amore stable platform for all types of driving. The only differences I'd suggest in those specs are if you are pushing the car hard in corners to maybe add 1* of negative camber, or if you are actually racing it in corners, to go to a static toe out condition. Toe out on a street car will make the car feel very darty and I wouldn't use it unless you are competing regularly and/or know how to quickly adjust it back and forth.

So, would this be applicable to any e body regardless of the setup?

Mine is stock, except I have offset UCA bushings and adjustable struts..firm feel steering box....level 2 I think.....and heavy duty (1") torsion bars and KYB shocks....and my rear end  is jacked up.....the shop has mine set to "stock" specs right now......doesnt feel BAD -- no pullls, returns ok....but "dartier" than before....now before I had BAD front tire wear so i dont want THAT back.

I am headed back this saturday for him to reset the steering wheel and since he has to put it back on the rack etc anyways figured I would ask what he thinks of the specs above.......
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015 - 01:35:53 PM by shadango »

Offline HP2

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2015 - 02:46:05 PM »
IMO, yes these specs are applicable to most E bodies or any classic for that matter. The  exceptions being cars with manual steering or bias ply tires. Manual steering requires a fair amount of effort so you want to keep caster to a minimum  if not negative. Additionally, bias tires will not tolerate as wide a range of adjustments without showing odd wear. Radials, on the other hand, can absorb a much wider range of angles before they wear improperly.

Your welcome to provide these specs to your guy. Don't be surprised if he poo-poos that much caster. There are a lot of alignment techs out there that don't agree with that much for street cars. The arguments against high caster angles are usually the increase in effort it produces and the fast return to center.  I think both are positives in a classic mopar. Even with the offset bushings and adjustable struts you may not be able to get up past 5*, but that is still a decent number.

For truly high performance settings, the desired target for caster should be equal to or slightly greater than the spindle axis inclination (or kingpin angle). The reason being that equaling the SAI allows the caster angles to offset the SAI  angle to pull higher camber angles the harder you turn. This allows the tire to remain more upright in a corner as the body rolls around it. By creating a more dynamic change, you don't have to dial in as much static angle, so you can run less camber initially while gaining more camber dynamically.  Low caster/camber angles do not compensate for the body roll as well and will begin to pull the tire at an angle minimizing its contact patch.

Its not always easy to envision, but the front suspension in moving in three different planes simultainously. Getting all these planes to play nice together is the challenge to making the suspension work for you instead of against you.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015 - 02:50:15 PM by HP2 »

Offline Mopar Mitch

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2015 - 02:49:38 PM »
With your back end jacked up, you're actually reducing the wanted positive caster... and that'll worsen the steering feel and handling, etc.
Autocross/road racers go in deeper... and come out harder!

See  MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, AUGUST 2006 ISSUE for featured article and details on my autocross T/A.

Offline crash340

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2015 - 04:08:03 PM »
Shadango,
before you take it in, wind the rear UCA cam bolts so the UCA is fully in toward the centre of the car, then just tell them to adjust the Camber to 1/2* neg and toe in to 1/16'' or what ever you want and that it, because of E bodies being slightly out of whack with body alignment im sure caster will be different on either side but not by any great amount to worry, or you could just have them equal it to the max.
Greg

73 Cuda
Brisbane, Australia

Offline GreenFish

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2015 - 06:49:44 PM »
So really i'm hearing, 

Put the UCAs on and take it to a good shop and tell them where I want it.
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI

Offline Cudaragtop

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2015 - 07:50:37 PM »
I took mine to my local Firestone shop. I gave them a piece of paper with the settings I wanted and opted for the lifetime FE alignment for not much more $$.
Look for coupons and use your Firestone card for additional 10% off if they offer it. If they don't offer you can ask for it...
They were able to get it pretty much where I wanted. They know me there and actually like to see my car when I bring it in.
They don't want to test drive it though, they would rather leave it up to me.
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Offline HP2

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2015 - 10:33:08 AM »
So really i'm hearing, 

Put the UCAs on and take it to a good shop and tell them where I want it.

Yes. An alternative for the alignment guys that must input a car is to use 2005 Mustang GT specs.

Offline Mopar Mitch

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015 - 11:00:57 AM »
The local Firestone shops by me will ONLY perform alignments to the OE mfg specs ("corporate policy")... best bet is to find a private business that does alignments with good equipment and discuss with them your wants/desires.

1. Always shoot for as much positive caster as possible.... different UCAs offer differ ranges.
2. A little negative camber (pending your wants/desires).
3. Then toe (pending your intended usage...  pylon a/x I've had good results with as much as .5" out total; road course ~1/16" in).

Also, for even BEST results, the car should be aligned as you'd be driving/racing it (driver in seat, ~gas in tank, trunk stuff?, etc).  Corner weight balancing done previous to alignment should also be done... again, for best results.   And... the sway bar end links have an effect on corner weight balancing (disconnect the end links when balancing, then shim or adjust as needed to equalize the end links after balancing is done).
Autocross/road racers go in deeper... and come out harder!

See  MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, AUGUST 2006 ISSUE for featured article and details on my autocross T/A.

Offline shadango

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2015 - 01:42:38 PM »
Running into some issues.....been here for 2 plus hours and tech says he is having a hard time getting these specs.... Says that the left side caster and right side caster is more than 2 and a half degrees apart....and the most he can get is like 1 and a half degrees on the left side....he acknowledged it was at like 3 or 4 when I brought it in.........he seems to be giving it his best.....now am leaving it for him to work on after he gets a couple other vehicles done that  he promised today and he says he should  be done with it this evening.

Hoping for the best here.

Offline BFM_Cuda

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2015 - 04:45:09 PM »
Running into some issues.....been here for 2 plus hours and tech says he is having a hard time getting these specs.... Says that the left side caster and right side caster is more than 2 and a half degrees apart....and the most he can get is like 1 and a half degrees on the left side....he acknowledged it was at like 3 or 4 when I brought it in.........he seems to be giving it his best.....now am leaving it for him to work on after he gets a couple other vehicles done that  he promised today and he says he should  be done with it this evening.

Hoping for the best here.

My 70 coronet could only get the caster down to a few degrees also. I upgraded the upper arms to an aftermarket set with some extra built in adjustment and the difference was very noticeable. You can also get Moog offset upper control arm bushings, but I have not tried them.
Hope you get it figured out, its worth it.

Offline shadango

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2015 - 07:20:27 AM »
It took the guy a while but all is well.

I ended up leaving the car for that evening......he found that the radius arm/strut arm was his issue.....last guy had maxed it out all the way to one end (these are aftermarket ones with adjustable ends).....once he got past that issue he said it was fine.

Wheel is straight and the car handles much better with the caster bumped up! I think he said he is at like 4.4 degrees caster.....should have written it down....dammit.  LOL  I asked for a printout but the machine had already cleared. Next time I have to remember the printout.


Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Setting caster and camber
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2015 - 10:41:55 PM »
I am glad they got it set up properly , it isd a shame they have to set to factory specs when factory specs are designed for bias tires not radials .
 Yes the car should handle a lot better set up properly , I am glad you found someone to set it properly 

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