Author Topic: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins  (Read 22370 times)

Offline GreenFish

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2016 - 11:56:59 AM »
Managed another 5 minutes on it again. Changed the setting to wasted spark cop. Ran the coil test on #1 and it did nothing. With fuse in (ha ha) confirmed I have the 12 volts.
Will be few days again before I can check other connections.

Oh and ADD kicked in and I pulled rear bumper so I can modify the brackets to push it in close to the body like the 72s are.

Mike

So when you do the coil test you will actually hear the coil fire. It clicks very fast. So if you ARE hearing a click, but the #1 is not firing you may have the wiring wrong. If you are not hearing any click then there is a bigger problem.
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI




Offline YellowThumper

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2016 - 05:14:57 PM »
So it appears I am getting the crank trigger signal with rpm also showing. Not seeing one for the cam as I suspected.
I switched to wasted spark to take that out of the equation. Thanks guys...
Ran through the coil test procedure on only coil A so far. No spark. Checked power and am getting the 12v as needed.
4 wires.
1 has 12v
2 are ground. 1 is to engine and chassis. The other is to ECU ground.
The 4th to ECU.
I'm assuming the coil test mode bypasses any setting such as COP vs wasted and will function regardless. I will run thru the remainder of the coils to confirm I don't just have a bad one. I was very thorough  (and retentive) with the wiring so I believe it is correct but will back trace and confirm. And will start to read up on if there is a jumper or something similar required within the ECU for multi coil instead of single coil setups.
One step at a time.



Mike.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016 - 09:18:40 PM by YellowThumper »
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Offline GreenFish

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2016 - 11:26:09 AM »
yes, sounds like you got it right. I grounded all of the wires to the same location. Make sure you have good grounds
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI

Offline shawge

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2016 - 11:40:35 AM »
Did you find the capacitor necessary?  Seems like it's there to smooth out any spikes/dips in the 12 volt supply?
- Jerry

Offline quagmire

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2016 - 07:26:23 PM »
Shouldn't need capacitors for these since they are logic level coils.  All the MS3 is sending is a low voltage signal to turn the coil on and off.  All major current flow and switching is effectively isolated from the MS3 and takes place in the coil.  I have zero noise issues with mine.

Have you pulled the wires off of the plugs and used a spark tester or spare plug grounded?  Most of my coils are extremely quiet and make the faintest of clicks with the wires attached to the plugs threaded into the heads.  You should NEVER cycle them without them able to ground out through a spark tester or plug, it is extremely hard on the coil to ground through itself.

Offline YellowThumper

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #65 on: February 27, 2016 - 01:03:50 PM »
As stated by qwagmire, no capacitors needed.

I have not tested actual spark. My hearing is $!#/ so I will use my timing light to confirm. Going to trace wiring first to be sure. Then back track to actual firing off.

One thing I have seen in all the reading about the coils is possibly my signal ground wire. I believe I connected it to one of the ground wires coming off the MS3X board.
Wondering if it should go to the main board connector pin #36 instead. (Anybody?)  I have grounded the box and the MS3X board with one of the leads and various other ground leads to the assorted sensors. However not all the spare leads are grounded.


Thanks.
Mike
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Offline quagmire

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #66 on: February 27, 2016 - 05:01:24 PM »
Ideally, you want them tied into the common signal ground wire at the Megasquirt along with the other sensor grounds to avoid a signal offset.  ALL of the ground pins (including the sensor ground) are internally bussed together so technically you can make any one of them your signal ground. 

From what you described, you just have two of them.  It shouldn't cause any issues with the coils since there should be no ground offset and it's an On/Off digital signal anyways.  There is virtually no current running through the signal ground side of the coil.  Grounding sensor grounds anywhere else but the Megasquirt sensor ground is the big no no that induces voltage offsets.

The only downside I can see is that you have one less ground wire to carry the load now, but I doubt that is your issue at hand since there is no real load placed on the Megasquirt when using logic level coils.

Offline quagmire

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #67 on: February 27, 2016 - 05:06:55 PM »
If you are unsure of your settings being right, you can attach your tune file and I can take a look at them.  If you wired them right it has to be a setting problem.  I highly doubt you have 8 bad coils.

Offline YellowThumper

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #68 on: February 29, 2016 - 11:19:26 PM »
Well, I did my due diligence and retraced the wires to confirm they are routed correct. Ended up tying all the unused grounds together and grounded them to the engine.
Went thru and tested all 8 coils to be sure and ... nothing.
Changed settings from COP, wasted COP and wasted and tested again. Still assume that it would still test regardless of the setting.
Kinda still wondering if it should be connected to the brown coil ground instead.

Quagmire,
Thanks for the offer. I will attempt to attach it here. If it doesn't work I will pm.

Thanks again.
Mike.
Removing the warning labels one at a time.
Nature will take care of the rest.

Offline GreenFish

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2016 - 07:14:23 AM »
Ill check and see where I put my brown wire and get back to you today. FYI, I'm using one of these for my grounds. works great

https://www.ronfrancis.com/prodinfo.asp?number=GW-15
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI

Offline brads70

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #70 on: March 01, 2016 - 07:34:59 AM »
Following this post is like a discussion between scientists!  :lol:  It's way beyond me most of the time but very interesting just the same. Lots to learn and I really enjoy that!  Thanks guys! :2thumbs:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline GreenFish

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2016 - 12:28:05 PM »
Hey Mike, Just looked at my car.  So I am using one of those ground blocks like I showed earlier. I have BOTH grounds for the coils going to that ground strip.

I took the black ground wires from Bank A and B and twisted them together then ran them to ground, and did the same with the brown wires.

Hope that helps
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI

Offline quagmire

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #72 on: March 01, 2016 - 07:43:22 PM »
Your cranking dwell is pretty low, I'd set it to 6 and see if it works.  That's what I use.  It may be too low to fire the coils without the alternator charging and if battery voltage is low.  On that note, are you using a battery or a charger?  Chargers cause electronics to behave erratically.  Mine will not behave correctly if I hook the charger up to the car with no battery.  The battery actually buffers out noise, even if it is weak.

My running dwell is 3.1, and duration is .7.

The brown signal grounds should be tied into the sensor ground coming out of the MS3.  Some people wire them to the power ground location and it works, but it is not recommended nor is it how they were designed to be wired.

The black grounds should definitely be grounded to a solid ground location, ideally AWAY from the MS3 grounds to minimize noise issues.  I have my O2 sensor heater grounds and coil grounds grounded at the back of one cylinder head, and the MS3 grounds and O2 sensor grounds to the other head.



If you are certain the coils are wired ok and the setting changes did nothing, connect a headlight bulb across one of the coil connectors 12v and black "power" ground wires.  Key on, Engine Off, if the bulb doesn't light up bright you have a weak connection somewhere. 

This is a basic load test and will reveal issues a basic volt or ohm meter will not since one strand of a wire could be left intact and you'd pass an ohm check.  A load test stress tests the circuit with real life current draw.

If that passes, I'd then check the signal ground and coil wires from the MS3 by ohm testing each from a coil connector end to the DB37.  You can ohm test these since virtually no current passes through them.

If ALL of that passes, it sounds like you have a coil issue after all.  Did you initially program your MS3 with the coils connected or the fuse installed?  That can burn them up since the coils may be commanded on steady during the flash programming.  That's why the prompt screen advises them to be unpowered during flashing.

Offline GreenFish

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #73 on: March 02, 2016 - 08:05:50 AM »
Hey Quagmire, Quick question. I'm wiring my injectors. They pig tails are two wires, i assume one (black) goes to the MS3x and the other (red) goes to 12v?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016 - 08:14:13 AM by GreenFish »
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI

Offline 74BlueFish

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Re: 74 Challenger EFI and.... Oh yeah Twins
« Reply #74 on: March 02, 2016 - 09:05:02 AM »
Yes.   That's how I have mine wired.  12 volts to a fused relay
Dan