Cooling info please.

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    Author Topic: Cooling info please.  (Read 5714 times)

    Offline gafletch

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    Cooling info please.
    « on: June 05, 2015 - 06:55:20 PM »
    440 non-stroker, has run hot before and after rebuild. Last year added Eddy Heads, new Lunati hyd cam, and now an 850 QuikFuel carb. It's .040 over , Doug's headers, New plug wires, New Milodon water pump. I've tried an electric puller fan, two different thermostats, back to the 18"  six blade mech fan.
    Still runs up to 220/240° in light traffic and won't cool back down.  Milodon recommends a shroud but the electric fan had one. My Mopar guru doesn't think it's the head gaskets. I have a Griffin radiator that was flushed. I don't know what kind of aluminum pump housing it has. I'm baffled. Suggestions?
    « Last Edit: June 05, 2015 - 07:10:31 PM by gafletch »
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    Offline Strawdawg

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #1 on: June 05, 2015 - 09:31:48 PM »
    Is the radiator core in good condition, or, are the tubes plugged up on the ends?  Remove the radiator cap and look, if you have not.  If it is an original radiator, it probably needs to be replaced as they tend to begin losing heat transfer efficiency after a few years and when the tubes start being blocked, you lose flow.
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    Offline mopar jack

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #2 on: June 05, 2015 - 10:07:54 PM »
    Check spark plugs to make sure you are not running lean. I would get an air fuel meter or O2 sensors for future tuning aid.
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    Offline Chryco Psycho

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #3 on: June 05, 2015 - 10:24:17 PM »
    Timing / tuning for sure , lean or retarded makes heat !
     If you have a 440 source water pump housing they were restrictive for flow .
     so you are running a 18" fan with a shroud now ?
    What about air flow out of the engine compartment , getting more heat out of the engine compartment can be a problem it is hard to flow enough air though the rad if the hot air cannot leave .
     Have you checked with an infrared temp gun to make sure the gauge is accurate ?
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    Offline brasil

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #4 on: June 06, 2015 - 03:12:54 AM »
    ..most overlooked :   The Pulleys !  I had the same issue...  checked ...doublechecked everything.  At the end I checked the pulleys... if the engine still has the AC waterpump  but the non AC Waterpump pulley...the   Ratio is very different ! so the Waterpump makes less rev /minute...   so you have to go for a  AC waterpump with AC Pulley...or non AC waterpump with non AC pulley...

    Ifyou look in the manual...you can find the ratios...and the type of WP  ( i.e 6 vs 8 blade impeller )

    Hope this helps

    Greetings Juergen
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    Offline dodj

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #5 on: June 06, 2015 - 07:21:32 AM »
    Quote from: Chryco Psycho on June 05, 2015 - 10:24:17 PM
    If you have a 440 source water pump housing they were restrictive for flow .
    I believe that was a suspicion - due to different shape of the passages - that was disproved.

    Along with what others have said about timing and rad condition, how about your coolant mix. About 50/50?
    Gasket thickness affecting pump positioning in the housing is also important when trying to get maximum efficiency out of your cooling system.
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    Scott
    1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
    2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
    Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

    Offline cudabob496

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #6 on: June 06, 2015 - 04:03:16 PM »
    upping idle makes water pump work better

    20% coolant cools better
    « Last Edit: June 06, 2015 - 05:24:31 PM by cudabob496 »
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    72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

    1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

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    Offline HP_Cuda

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #7 on: June 07, 2015 - 03:03:41 AM »

    One thing that wasn't disproved was the fact that using the 440source water pump housing with the water pump they sell sucks eggs.

    I've got the water pump if you would like to buy it!!!

    Electrics are all over the place, I'd definitely get a clutch fan and put it with a good shroud and you should be good. The thermostat should also be a 180 degree one.

    Quote from: dodj on June 06, 2015 - 07:21:32 AM
    I believe that was a suspicion - due to different shape of the passages - that was disproved.

    Along with what others have said about timing and rad condition, how about your coolant mix. About 50/50?
    Gasket thickness affecting pump positioning in the housing is also important when trying to get maximum efficiency out of your cooling system.
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    1970 Cuda Clone 440 4 speed - sublime green
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    Offline dodj

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #8 on: June 07, 2015 - 08:04:56 AM »
    Quote from: HP_Cuda on June 07, 2015 - 03:03:41 AM
    One thing that wasn't disproved was the fact that using the 440source water pump housing with the water pump they sell sucks eggs.

    I've got the water pump if you would like to buy it!!!

    Electrics are all over the place, I'd definitely get a clutch fan and put it with a good shroud and you should be good. The thermostat should also be a 180 degree one.
    The 440 source pump and housing on my engine with a 191* t-stat works well. I wonder why the difference in experience with the same equipment? :clueless:

    Now back on topic,  :grinyes: , I agree with HP on electric fans, go (or stay) mechanical.
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    Scott
    1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
    2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
    Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

    Offline HP_Cuda

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #9 on: June 07, 2015 - 03:45:24 PM »
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    1970 Cuda Clone 440 4 speed - sublime green
    1970 Cuda 383 4 speed - yellow - SOLD

    Offline dodj

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #10 on: June 07, 2015 - 08:03:36 PM »
     :2thumbs:
    The testing done by musicman is why I bought the 440 source pump. It has been flawless. Cooler than the original mopar equipment. Still I wonder why you had such a bad experience compared to my 'very impressed' experience.
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    Scott
    1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
    2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
    Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

    Offline HP_Cuda

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #11 on: June 08, 2015 - 03:31:02 AM »

    Simply put impellers don't cool very well.

    You want to move coolant through the system allowing it to hit the copper/aluminum to keep it at a steady state.

    Maybe it would work well for you but over 550+hp on mine and it just won't cut it.
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    1970 Cuda Clone 440 4 speed - sublime green
    1970 Cuda 383 4 speed - yellow - SOLD

    Offline gafletch

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #12 on: June 08, 2015 - 12:42:34 PM »
    Good input, guys. Chryco, I used a laser thermo-temp  gun. AutoMeter mechanical gauge read 212 while the top of the housing read 195....? Milodon tech said you have to measure the actual coolant.  Electric fan had shroud. Put 6 blade 18" mechanical back on but no shroud yet. 3" from radiator. 60% coolant. Tried additive but no help.  New milodon pump, not sure of housing brand. Clean 24" Griffin radiator.
    Q. Correct timing on 440 as listed in original question? Also will an 8"x2" breather cause heating?
    « Last Edit: June 08, 2015 - 12:47:35 PM by gafletch »
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    Offline Strawdawg

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #13 on: June 08, 2015 - 01:52:09 PM »
    The tech was right.  A temp gun gives a very gross, and generally low, estimate of the coolant temp.

    Now, a mechanical fan three inches from the core is not going to pull very much air thru the core and, what little it does, will come from the area immediately in front of the blade and not thru the entire core.

    An electric fan that pulls at least 20 amps when running will do much better than what you currently have.  Either get a shroud or go back to the electric fan assuming it is a quality unit.

    Also, the 60% coolant mix is not a very good mix when it comes to heat transfer. 
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    Offline Chryco Psycho

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    Re: Cooling info please.
    « Reply #14 on: June 08, 2015 - 06:54:44 PM »
    timing should be approx 14-16* @ idle with a 20* curve to 34-36 at 3000 rpm , no vacuum advance .
     restricting air flow into the engine is never a good idea , although you should be rich now .
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