Author Topic: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?  (Read 7685 times)

Offline 74 challenge

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Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« on: June 25, 2015 - 07:43:22 AM »
I took the advice of the forum and bought a proform 650 vacuum secondary carburetor http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pro-67207/overview/ for my 318 with headers, intake, stock cam a904 auto and highway gear. It was replacing a an edelbrock 1405 manual choke carburetor that was just a terrible piece of junk.

Well it's now on the car and it's not great. the hesitation off idle is enough to merit not taking the car out of the garage, it surges when you try and hold a constant speed between 40-70 mph. I have set the timing myself and since I was not confident I sent it out to have a shop take a stab at it and they got the timing down great so now I am dealing with the carb tuning.
What do I change now? Jets? Idle air bleed? is the stumble at idle an accelerator pump? is that even adjustable? I need some help before I regret this purchase. Any resources on this carb or someone have a jetting chart like my old edelbrock had?

I understand that this carb might be a tad oversize, but I'm married to it so let's get past that point.

We have as short driving season and I don't want to miss out on it!
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2




Offline 74 challenge

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Offline brads70

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2015 - 08:03:44 AM »
The off idle hesitation and the surging makes me think it's not getting enough fuel?  Do you have a pressure gauge to measure fuel pressure? Wondering if fuel pump has an issue?   Fuel level in the float bowls is set correct?
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
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http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline 74 challenge

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2015 - 08:19:41 AM »
The off idle hesitation and the surging makes me think it's not getting enough fuel?  Do you have a pressure gauge to measure fuel pressure? Wondering if fuel pump has an issue?   Fuel level in the float bowls is set correct?

Fuel level is at halfway up the sight glass, it was almost at the top out of the box and it was dripping when the engine was shut off. I'd have a hard time thinking that it's not getting enough fuel since the tank, sender, lines and pump are all less than 2 years old.
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2015 - 08:38:13 AM »
is there any play in the accelerator pump linkage , is there a squirt of fuel as soon as the throttle shaft is moved , there should be  ?

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Offline 74 challenge

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2015 - 10:26:26 AM »
is there any play in the accelerator pump linkage , is there a squirt of fuel as soon as the throttle shaft is moved , there should be  ?

I will verify this, but just to be correct it should be against the plastic lobe and with even the slightest movement in the throttle it should activate, no slack whatsoever.
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Offline YO7_A66

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2015 - 11:33:08 AM »
 Yes. You want fuel to be coming out of the squirter with very little throttle movement with engine idling.

 ""the hesitation off idle is enough to merit not taking the car out of the garage, it surges when you try and hold a constant speed between 40-70 mph.""

 First you need to make sure you have the metering screws adjusted properly at idle (if auto, then in D with brake applied). You want to adjust the metering screws to give you the best vacuum reading. Once you have done this and if there is a hesitation right off idle, then richen all metering screws the same amount (apx 1/12 turn each. Think of the face of the metering screw like a clock). Once you have the metering screws adjusted so that you have a good idle and you have no hesitation off idle, then if you still have surging up to around 55mph or so, then this is controlled by the Idle Air Bleeds. The 070 IAB's are on the lean side. If you do change them, change them all at once and keep them the same size. If you have to change them, try getting a set of 065's and a set of 060's to test.
 
 Note: Each time you change the size of the IAB's, you will need to reset your metering screws.
 Note 2: The main jets may not start affecting your A/F mixture until around 50-55mph or so (pending on your rpms).  You won't be able to pin-point this rpm unless you have an A/F sensor.

Offline HP_Cuda

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2015 - 12:20:03 PM »

Check to see if what Neil is saying - see if the cam you have is wrong = meaning you get too much pump or hardly any at all when off idle.

Start with finding out what vacuum you are pulling.

Then check to see that your idle mixture screws are at 1.5 turns out to start.

Hook up a vacuum guage and tune each idle mixture screw until you get the highest vacuum reading.
1970 Cuda Clone 440 4 speed - sublime green
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Offline 74 challenge

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2015 - 07:45:09 AM »
Alright I couldn't get it out of the garage yesterday since there was a dumpster in the way thanks to a bathroom renovation BUT I did manage to check:

Yes the accelerator pump moves as soon as the throttle is touched, IT's not a huge movement but it moves as soon as I touch the throttle lever. There is a spring with a bolt going through on it clearly allowing for adjustment what would adjusting that smaller or larger do?

Since there is some discussion about air bleeds, I think I need a bit of an education.

On a holley style carb there are air bleeds and there are Jets.

air bleed controls how much air is allowed into the mix - therefore if I want more air I need to go bigger. They have idle and what I will call main air bleeds. This does not increase or decrease fuel consumption. How do I adjust idle air bleeds vs. main bleeds? Should these be adjusted before I touch the jets?

Jets control how much fuel is used. IF the car is lean or Rich my adjustment is here. I do not own an air fuel meter or an O2 Sensor so the only way I can see this is by pulling a plug after a highway cruise.  and hopefully go till the plugs are a nice tan color.

I have 8 air bleeds 4 main and 4 idle. I believe the outermost four are idle and the inner most 4 are main. I want to set all the screws to 1.5 turns on the idle circuit and set that first before I touch mains.

...am I making sense or am I all over the place? I really think I made a mistake in buying a carb with so many adjustments.
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2

Offline YO7_A66

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2015 - 09:07:16 AM »
 ""There is a spring with a bolt going through on it clearly allowing for adjustment what would adjusting that smaller or larger do?""
 - This adjustment is so that you can readjust the clearance when you swap in different size pump cams (black, pink, white, red, orange, green and blue). Each cam has a different profile and each one needs to be adjusted just like you already have done.

 - The air bleeds control how much extra "air" comes into each circuit. Think of the air bleeds as an "external" adjustment. The Idle Air Bleeds are an external adjustment for the Idle Feed Restrictors which are on the metering blocks. The High Speed Air Bleeds (Main Air Bleeds) are an external adjustment for the jets. If you have three sets of each, then you have three adjustments that you can make on the outside of the carb before having to take the carb apart for the internal adjustment (IFRs and jets).
Both of these sets of bleeds are on the top of the carb. The IABs are the outer four and the HSABs are the inside four. It is much easier to see what each one will affect if you have an A/F tuning kit. Without the kit, you are going on feel and sound alone.

 - IFRs, metering screws, and IABs affect the idle and the cruising up to around 50-55mph or so pending on rpm.
 - Primary Jets and HSABs affect the cruising A/F from 50-55mph and on up.
 - Power Valve and Power Valve Restricters control "when" (PV) and how much more fuel (PVCRs) once the vacuum is low enough to open the PV to help supply extra fuel to the main jets.
 - Float levels will affect A/F from idle to WOT. This is an external adjustment that can be made that will affect the A/F from idle to WOT. This adjustment affects the entire range of the carb, not just certain circuits.
 - Pump cams and squirters are the "band-aid" of the carb. They help fix hesitations during acceleration. If too much fuel is added per the pump cams and squirters, then this will hurt acceleration and cause black smoke.
 - Secondary Jets and HSABs affect the WOT A/F.

  Setting the metering screws at 1.5 turns out is only a base line for some brand named carbs. This should be rich enough to get you started up and then you need to tweak the idle vacuum and A/F from there. The metering screws on a Quick Fuel carb are generally set at 1/2 to 1 full turn outward. The main goal is to get the idle A/F ratio setup for a clean idle but rich enough to keep the vacuum up to produce a smooth idle especially on auto cars in D with the brake applied (like at a stop light).

 Note: There are a few different circuits in the carb. They can all be rich or they can all be lean. One can be rich and then the others be lean. So saying the carb is rich is a very general statement. As you learn the adjustments on each circuit, then you can tune the appropriate circuit to fix the tuning issue.

 Start with the idle circuit: IFRs, Metering Screws, and IABs. Once you have a clean idle, no hesitation off idle from a stop (light acceleration), and a clean cruising A/F, then you tune the accelerations off idle. This includes the pump cams and squirters. Once this is complete, then you test your main jets. Cruising from 50mph on up to 75mph or so is where you want to tune the main jets. You have the internal adjustment of the main jets and the external adjustment of the Primary HSABs. You may not be able to tune the HSABs without an A/F kit. Once this is complete, then tune the Power Valve and the PVCRs to allow a clean transition from cruise to the main jets. You can test this by cruising at a steady pace (50mph+) and then pushing down on the accel pedal (do not open the secondaries) and see how it reacts after the vacuum drops below your current PV rating. An A/F kit can show you how lean or rich you are once the vacuum drops down to and past the PV rating (5.5, 6.5, etc.).  Then you can adjust the PV timing and the PVCRs size to keep you in a good A/F range. Then after all of that is done, then use your secondary jets for the WOT A/F tuning. Keep in mind that you have an internal adjustment (secondary jets) and you have an external adjustment (Secondary HSAB's) for tuning your WOT. If you have three sets of HSABs and you can not get the WOT A/F that you want, then open the carb and change the secondary jets. Then you start the process again.
 Did you notice that I kept saying A/F kit! These are a remarkable tuning "tool" when you are working with a carb. There is a lot going on inside of a carb from idle to WOT. The A/F kit helps you see the changes in A/F while trying to tune.

 Look at tuning a carb like standing at the bottom of a flight of stairs. One step at a time (idle) until you get to the top (WOT). Lets say there are 10 steps. If you make a tuning change to a lower step number, that change will affect all of the higher numbered steps (Total A/F).
If you tune step one (idle: IFRs) then you jump to step 10 (WOT: HSABs), you have no idea how the rest of the carb reacts. Or, if you tune steps 1 thru 5 in that order, then you change step 3, this change now affects steps 4,5,6,7,8,9,& 10. If you change step 9, then your change only affects step 10. If you change step 2, then your change affects steps 3 thru 10. This is why you tune a carb from step 1.
 Learn how to adjust each step of the carb and take notes after each change! This will allow you to see how each change affected the issue.

 Have fun!
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015 - 09:52:59 AM by YO7_A66 »

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2015 - 10:29:31 AM »
The bleed circuits are like a straw with a hole in the side so the bottom of the straw is submerged in fuel , the hole in the side is the jet or idle screw restriction  & the top of the straw is the bleed , so the vacuum in the venturi or manifold draws in fuel through the jet or idle circuit , if you close the top of the straw vacuum will pull 100% through the idle or jet , the larger the hole at the top of the straw the less effect the vacuum has on fuel flow through the jet or idle circuit .
 So with higher engine vacuum either in the manifold or venturi you need a larger bleed to lessen the pull / fuel flow  & with lower vacuum you need a smaller bleed to increase fuel flow .
I hope this helps

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Offline 74 challenge

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2015 - 11:09:10 AM »
yep I'm screwed.

let me digest this and come back with a response. I feel like this is going to take me a long time to figure out but this carb was my yearly budget for car parts so I'm married to it. It needs to work well.
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2

Offline YO7_A66

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2015 - 11:43:30 AM »
 You have a very good carb!

 Before your next drive, screw in each metering screw (c-wise) until it gently stops (counting how far in each would go). Take a permanent marker and make a mark on the head of each screw at the 12:00 position so that you can see it with the air cleaner on. Now back them back out to where you started and making them all the same.

If you don't have a vacuum gauge, get one and temporarily hook it up to the manifold vacuum supply and run a hose long enough so that you have it inside of the car for driving reference.

Since you have an auto, start by taking the car for a drive and get it up to normal running temps. Find a place to park (driveway, parking lot, etc.) and apply the emergency brake and let the engine idle. Take note of the vacuum reading and idle rpms.

Next is to select one of the metering screws and turn it inward (leaning it out) 1/4 turn. Wait 30 seconds and reset the idle rpms if needed and then take note again of the vacuum reading. If the vacuum reading went higher, then you know that you need to lean out the metering screws. If the reading went lower, then you need to richen up the metering screws. Now that you should have seen a change in the vacuum reading, rotate that one metering screw back to where you started. Since that carb has 4 corner idle, you want to turn each of the four metering screws about 1/12 of a turn in the direction that gave you a better vacuum reading. Then wait 30 seconds and see if you get a better reading. Keep rotating the four metering screws in the same direction 1/12 of a turn until your vacuum no longer gets any higher. You may need to readjust your idle rpms to keep the idle correct. Once you have the highest vacuum reading with your brake applied, then you need to note where the permanent mark is located on your metering screws (3:00 for example). You now have your idle set where you need it for the current outside temps.

 Next is to go test drive it from a stop and lightly accelerate. If you have no issues, then it is time to go cruise 40-60mph and take notes of any surging or pinging that you might feel. If you do have issues with hesitations during light accel from a stop, then you need to swap out to a larger squirter or to a larger pump cam.

Offline 74 challenge

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2015 - 12:33:21 PM »
You have a very good carb!

 Before your next drive, screw in each metering screw (c-wise) until it gently stops (counting how far in each would go). Take a permanent marker and make a mark on the head of each screw at the 12:00 position so that you can see it with the air cleaner on. Now back them back out to where you started and making them all the same.

If you don't have a vacuum gauge, get one and temporarily hook it up to the manifold vacuum supply and run a hose long enough so that you have it inside of the car for driving reference.

Since you have an auto, start by taking the car for a drive and get it up to normal running temps. Find a place to park (driveway, parking lot, etc.) and apply the emergency brake and let the engine idle. Take note of the vacuum reading and idle rpms.

Next is to select one of the metering screws and turn it inward (leaning it out) 1/4 turn. Wait 30 seconds and reset the idle rpms if needed and then take note again of the vacuum reading. If the vacuum reading went higher, then you know that you need to lean out the metering screws. If the reading went lower, then you need to richen up the metering screws. Now that you should have seen a change in the vacuum reading, rotate that one metering screw back to where you started. Since that carb has 4 corner idle, you want to turn each of the four metering screws about 1/12 of a turn in the direction that gave you a better vacuum reading. Then wait 30 seconds and see if you get a better reading. Keep rotating the four metering screws in the same direction 1/12 of a turn until your vacuum no longer gets any higher. You may need to readjust your idle rpms to keep the idle correct. Once you have the highest vacuum reading with your brake applied, then you need to note where the permanent mark is located on your metering screws (3:00 for example). You now have your idle set where you need it for the current outside temps.

 Next is to go test drive it from a stop and lightly accelerate. If you have no issues, then it is time to go cruise 40-60mph and take notes of any surging or pinging that you might feel. If you do have issues with hesitations during light accel from a stop, then you need to swap out to a larger squirter or to a larger pump cam.


This is more of what I need a step by step, as dumb as you can method for carb idiots. I think my issue is as compared to the edelbrock carb that had all of a couple jets and a couple metering rods this carb has so many adjustment points and I need to know what to do with each and in what order. It also had a fancy chart about how to go leaner, richer, idle cruise etc...

When the car does this, the responsible thing to adjust is this.
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2

Offline brads70

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Re: Proform Carb tuning...where to start? Resources?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2015 - 01:02:46 PM »
Don't give up..... this is something to be conquered !!  :aarg: :2thumbs:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0