440 Six Pack vs Gen 3 Hemis

[Chryco Psycho]

I had to match the cam exactly so it was into the effcient working range at the low RPM needed with the OD on the highway. I canhelp you design a cam that works but your variables maybe different than the one I speced for my friends 512 build
 
 SO I designed a high lift short duration cam that worked well at low RPM around 2100 so that the engine was very effcient at that RPM , I also port heads very differently from most people & have been told to my face that I was stupid to port they way I do , but instead of making the ports large & straight I work on air speed , twist & swirl to cause the air to enter the cylinder at a better angle & create swirl to better mix & suspend fuel , the #s I have seen on the flow bench & in real life in real MPG do not lie .

 One engine I built the owner matched the Mopar performance suggested parts using the exact parts they suggest to run 12.5-13.0 in the 1/4 mile , so built the engine & ran 12.2 @ 4000" altitude so we beat the Mopar performance suggestion using their parts !! something had to be working that was not in their list basically it had to be in the head flow !

 EFI will eliminate some of the fuel mixing & suspension as the fuel is introduced into the air stream in a better way than a carb will .
 The OD 833 is a truck version of the A833 using 3rd gear as an OD ratio  of .71 . these will bolt in where a regular A833 is with very minor modifications to the trans not the floor etc so this leaves you with a final drive ratio of 2.52 in OD using 3.55 gears ,  so with the setup u have & using a 26 " tire you would be doing 70 MPH at 2280 rpm . using a taller tire will drop RPM even more . So yes with the right parts running at 2300 rpm cruising on the highway there is no reason you could not be getting close to 20 MPG no matter how many people tell you this cannot be done , HP & I have both proved it is possible !

 Even the torque converter has slippage , so true if u use a 727 with a gear vendor you will still have slippage , buy using a later trans with a lock up converter such as a 518 you have no slippage in the converter so it is more efficient BUT you have to be careful with power as is the case with Cummins , while the trans is very strong the lcoking clutch in the converter is only a single disc & the Cummins will tear it up so one of the best upgrades is to remove the factory converter & install a performance one with 3 disc clutch lock up , this will keep the trans alive as the trans rarely fails it is the parts of the clutch going through the trans that causes the failures , same with a 440/512 ci torque monster you better make sure the lock up converter is up to the task !.
 

[Spartan040]

I had to match the cam exactly so it was into the effcient working range at the low RPM needed with the OD on the highway. I canhelp you design a cam that works but your variables maybe different than the one I speced for my friends 512 build
 
 SO I designed a high lift short duration cam that worked well at low RPM around 2100 so that the engine was very effcient at that RPM , I also port heads very differently from most people & have been told to my face that I was stupid to port they way I do , but instead of making the ports large & straight I work on air speed , twist & swirl to cause the air to enter the cylinder at a better angle & create swirl to better mix & suspend fuel , the #s I have seen on the flow bench & in real life in real MPG do not lie .

 One engine I built the owner matched the Mopar performance suggested parts using the exact parts they suggest to run 12.5-13.0 in the 1/4 mile , so built the engine & ran 12.2 @ 4000" altitude so we beat the Mopar performance suggestion using their parts !! something had to be working that was not in their list basically it had to be in the head flow !

 EFI will eliminate some of the fuel mixing & suspension as the fuel is introduced into the air stream in a better way than a carb will .
 The OD 833 is a truck version of the A833 using 3rd gear as an OD ratio  of .71 . these will bolt in where a regular A833 is with very minor modifications to the trans not the floor etc so this leaves you with a final drive ratio of 2.52 in OD using 3.55 gears ,  so with the setup u have & using a 26 " tire you would be doing 70 MPH at 2280 rpm . using a taller tire will drop RPM even more . So yes with the right parts running at 2300 rpm cruising on the highway there is no reason you could not be getting close to 20 MPG no matter how many people tell you this cannot be done , HP & I have both proved it is possible !

 Even the torque converter has slippage , so true if u use a 727 with a gear vendor you will still have slippage , buy using a later trans with a lock up converter such as a 518 you have no slippage in the converter so it is more efficient BUT you have to be careful with power as is the case with Cummins , while the trans is very strong the lcoking clutch in the converter is only a single disc & the Cummins will tear it up so one of the best upgrades is to remove the factory converter & install a performance one with 3 disc clutch lock up , this will keep the trans alive as the trans rarely fails it is the parts of the clutch going through the trans that causes the failures , same with a 440/512 ci torque monster you better make sure the lock up converter is up to the task !.

That sounds awesome, I would really appreciate that. If I go the 440 route (and at this point I'm seriously considering it, since I'm loving the sound of all this), I will get in touch with you about designing that cam. As for the A518 tranny, is that a 3 speed with overdrive, or 4 speed with overdrive? Would it maybe be possible to go with a 545RFE, or would that require major surgery? I would REALLY love to get my hands on the new 8 speed Torqueflite 8HP90, but I don't see how I could make that work.

Also, what EFI system should I go with if I want a twin screw or centrifugal supercharger later down the line? I've heard that the Edelbrock E-street, Edelbrock Pro Flo, and Holley Dominator systems are all pretty good.

[Chryco Psycho]

518 is a 727 + an Od gear , these fit well , anthing else will require major surgery to install .
I built my own EFI usiing specific components from different mfg ,
 I have not used Eddy systems , I have used older Holley systems that truely sucked but that was back in 2000 & the new systems have to be better .
 Fast efi is another good one , whatever you do use a muiltiport EFI with a compatable intake such as the Eddy Victor predrilled with fuel rails or the newer forward facing one as it allows a lot more surface area for the air cleaner & around a 1200 CFM throttle body as a minimum .

[Spartan040]

518 is a 727 + an Od gear , these fit well , anthing else will require major surgery to install .
I built my own EFI usiing specific components from different mfg ,
 I have not used Eddy systems , I have used older Holley systems that truely sucked but that was back in 2000 & the new systems have to be better .
 Fast efi is another good one , whatever you do use a muiltiport EFI with a compatable intake such as the Eddy Victor predrilled with fuel rails or the newer forward facing one as it allows a lot more surface area for the air cleaner & around a 1200 CFM throttle body as a minimum .

I guess I'll go with either a T56 or a 518 then. Do you have a parts list for that EFI you built? Also, it appears the Edelbrock Pro Flo doesn't use an air cleaner (cold air intake system instead), while the Pro Flo 2 does.

[Spartan040]

By the way Chryco, did you build that 440/512 stroker yourself, or did you buy a stroker kit? If so, who makes the best stroker kit out there?

[1970 RT Challenger 1970]

Interesting read!

[Chryco Psycho]

, I would pass on a Tremec behind a 512 stroker making that kind of power , I doubt it would last , I installed one behind a serious Hemi & was disappointed , I did not shift well & the driveline angle was off .
 I used approx 12 440 Source kits to build 512 strokers , A close friend did all the machine work & did all the short block assy , I chose the parts list -pistons , cams , heads , intakes , carbs , rockers , I did the top end assy ordered custom pushrods etc . Oddly one of our customers chose not to pay me & decided not to call me for help after that , the engine started to run poorly & he had no clue how to make it run right so he decided to blow it up & claim warranty , last laugh was on him , he badly damaged the engine bending a couple of the con rods etc but the engine would not blow up , finally brought it back to us & admitted what he had done after we called him on it , cost him another  5k to have the engine rebuilt properly again !
  For EFI I used
- SDSEFI computer http://www.sdsefi.com/
- an Accufab 1200 CFM Throttle body as it was the shortest one I could find
- Eddy Victor intake with fuel rails this has the T body on top of the intake , now I see they have a forward facing intake with rails that will take 150 mm T body or bigger
- 2 Walbro inline fuel pumps 250 lt / hr
- Bosch 75 lb / hr injectors
- Bosch fuel pressure reg set for 55 psi
- I had the balancer drilled with magnets exactly 90* apart & built my own bracket for the crank trigger / pick up
-  I used stainless JIC fittings everywhere as they are $5 each instead of $40 for AN
-  I ran 3 3/8 steel lines 2 with a dedicated Walbro pump to each fuel rail & a 3rd as a return line
- I used a single coil & a dist instead of a multi 4 coil pack with wasted spark but the SDS can run multi coil pack instead of a dist .
 I think that was all of the parts ?

[Spartan040]

, I would pass on a Tremec behind a 512 stroker making that kind of power , I doubt it would last , I installed one behind a serious Hemi & was disappointed , I did not shift well & the driveline angle was off .
 I used approx 12 440 Source kits to build 512 strokers , A close friend did all the machine work & did all the short block assy , I chose the parts list -pistons , cams , heads , intakes , carbs , rockers , I did the top end assy ordered custom pushrods etc . Oddly one of our customers chose not to pay me & decided not to call me for help after that , the engine started to run poorly & he had no clue how to make it run right so he decided to blow it up & claim warranty , last laugh was on him , he badly damaged the engine bending a couple of the con rods etc but the engine would not blow up , finally brought it back to us & admitted what he had done after we called him on it , cost him another  5k to have the engine rebuilt properly again !
  For EFI I used
- SDSEFI computer http://www.sdsefi.com/
- an Accufab 1200 CFM Throttle body as it was the shortest one I could find
- Eddy Victor intake with fuel rails this has the T body on top of the intake , now I see they have a forward facing intake with rails that will take 150 mm T body or bigger
- 2 Walbro inline fuel pumps 250 lt / hr
- Bosch 75 lb / hr injectors
- Bosch fuel pressure reg set for 55 psi
- I had the balancer drilled with magnets exactly 90* apart & built my own bracket for the crank trigger / pick up
-  I used stainless JIC fittings everywhere as they are $5 each instead of $40 for AN
-  I ran 3 3/8 steel lines 2 with a dedicated Walbro pump to each fuel rail & a 3rd as a return line
- I used a single coil & a dist instead of a multi 4 coil pack with wasted spark but the SDS can run multi coil pack instead of a dist .
 I think that was all of the parts ?

Building something out of all of that seems beyond my knowledge, so I think I'll go for one of the pre-built systems or get a shop to build it for me. Which 440 Source kit should I use for the 512 if I want to add a supercharger later down the line?

[Chryco Psycho]

This is where you get into trouble , to run lower compression such as 8 :1 the engine will not work well && make a lot of power without the supercharger , build for 10.5 compression & you will not really be able to run a supercharger , so you need to decide this as you build the engine

[Spartan040]

This is where you get into trouble , to run lower compression such as 8 :1 the engine will not work well && make a lot of power without the supercharger , build for 10.5 compression & you will not really be able to run a supercharger , so you need to decide this as you build the engine

Alright, so if I want it supercharged I'm going to have to do it right off the bat, got it

[Spartan040]

So how would I go about building a 512 stroker in the 500-600 horsepower range with a low enough compression for a supercharger? Would I have to build it with lower horsepower at first so that with the supercharger, it ends up around 600-650? Or could I start with 500-600?

[Spartan040]

Also, Chryco, you said that you could help design a proper cam. I'm imagining that would entail buying a cam to start with and then modifying it, which would be best?

[Chryco Psycho]

I would need a lot of info from from rear gear ratio , tire size , auto or manual trans [manual is more forgiving ] , average speed you travel on the highway , etc to dial a cam in , you would order a custom grind cam to fit your needs 

[Spartan040]

I would need a lot of info from from rear gear ratio , tire size , auto or manual trans [manual is more forgiving ] , average speed you travel on the highway , etc to dial a cam in , you would order a custom grind cam to fit your needs

Alright got it, thanks. So with this cam and the rest of the engine build, I'll be getting around 500-600 horsepower, while also getting decent highway mileage? Fantastic, I had no idea this old motor had such potential

[Chryco Psycho]

Really ?
 ever seen a fuel Hemi at what 7500 hp ?
 440 /512 is over 8 liters , bigger than a Viper engine & will take 700+ HP in a stock block , use an aftermarket block & 2200 hp is reliable easy , add technology such as EFI crank trigger ign & coil packs & stupid HP & drivability is easy , add  twin turbos & 1100 hp is not out of reach .
 A 3rd gen Hemi makes a lot more HP/ ci  & doesn't have a significant amount of room left to make more power .