440 Six Pack vs Gen 3 Hemis

[Spartan040]

I'm interested to see what you people think of each motor and how they stack up against each other. I've decided I probably want to go with a 6.2L Hellcat engine, or a 6.4L that I would beef up and supercharge, but since it would be cheaper to do a 440, I want to hear the pros and cons.

One thing that really attracts me to the Hellcat engine is its surprisingly good fuel economy (13/21 advertised), because I want to have some actual driving range between fill-ups. There's also its insane power (I intend to do some drag racing on the track with this car).

I'm attracted to the 440 because there's always the old adage "no replacement for displacement," it's a classic, they can be really built up to have massive power especially with a supercharger, EFI conversion is available, and they're very tough, reliable, and simpler to work on. One other quick question, where would I find a supercharger for the 440 that fits under the hood (I like blowers, but I want to keep this looking like a pro touring car) and works with an EFI engine?

[HP_Cuda]

Well a 440 with a procharger or centrifugal blower would fit under the hood.

Its all in what you are trying to accomplish. The hemi will give you more top end and pull like a mad hound while the 440 will have more torque off the line.

That is somewhat a generalization but you get the idea. The route you speak of with a 440 and blower requires a certain build - i.e. low compression 8 to 1 or lower depending on how you want to setup the combo and how much boost you want to run. 

[HP2]

Look for some posts made by member G-Man on here and dodgecharger.com. He has regularly debated the whole small block/big block/Gen2 Hemi/Gen 3 Hemi approach for a few years now. There should be plenty of detail in all those topics.

[Spartan040]

Cool, will do. It's a hard decision for me, part of me wants to go classic and have the rip snorting power a 440 can provide pretty simply, as well as the toughness and reliability and ease of working on it, but another part wants the conveniences, performance, and (somewhat) better fuel economy of the new Hemi. I would like to be able to drive this car pretty often, so if I don't want to break my checking account I might want to go modern, lol. Unless there are other ways besides fuel injection I could increase the 440's fuel mileage? Maybe convert it to an electronic ECU system? A thermostat controlled radiator fan? I'm a bit new to engines as well, so if I make a stupid suggestion, I apologize in advance.

[Chryco Psycho]

From a simplicty angle the EFI 440 / 512 stroker would be the route I would take , over the new Hellcat engine .
 I have tuned 440 s to get 18-22 MPG on the highway & EFI wastes a Lot less fuel .
 But it will still be another 440 build .
 There is also turbos or supercharging for a 440 , I was going to develop my 440 Charger into a Twin Turbo efi but never had the funds to get it done , I chose the 71 Charger body simply because of the room under hood with 22" between the rad & grille for  intercoolers & cold air inlets , lots of dreams but no reality possible as usual

[Spartan040]

From a simplicty angle the EFI 440 / 512 stroker would be the route I would take , over the new Hellcat engine .
 I have tuned 440 s to get 18-22 MPG on the highway & EFI wastes a Lot less fuel .
 But it will still be another 440 build .
 There is also turbos or supercharging for a 440 , I was going to develop my 440 Charger into a Twin Turbo efi but never had the funds to get it done , I chose the 71 Charger body simply because of the room under hood with 22" between the rad & grille for  intercoolers & cold air inlets , lots of dreams but no reality possible as usual

18-22 MPG? I didn't think that was possible with a 440! I would really really appreciate it if you could tell me how you did that, and if it would still be possible with the motor being around 550-650 horsepower.

[Chryco Psycho]

I biult a 440 / 512 , Ported iron closed chamber heads , very specific cam grind ,Proform 950 carb , TTI headers , 3" pipes , 3.55 Dana but with an OD 833 so rpm is around 2250 @ 70 MPH , it dynoed 398 HP / 460 ft lbs at the tires on a mustang dyno , somewhere around 660 gross hp & 720 ft lbs .
it makes 18 MPG , I have tuned other milder builds into the low 20 mpg as well but ethanol with lose significant milage as it take 40% more ethanol to make the same power [BTU] .

[Spartan040]

I biult a 440 / 512 , Ported iron closed chamber heads , very specific cam grind ,Proform 950 carb , TTI headers , 3" pipes , 3.55 Dana but with an OD 833 so rpm is around 2250 @ 70 MPH , it dynoed 398 HP / 460 ft lbs at the tires on a mustang dyno , somewhere around 660 gross hp & 720 ft lbs .
it makes 18 MPG , I have tuned other milder builds into the low 20 mpg as well but ethanol with lose significant milage as it take 40% more ethanol to make the same power [BTU] .

Would aluminum heads make any difference? I've heard tell that they're usually better for performance motors. Did you use EFI on your motor? For a transmission I'm planning on a TorqueFlite 727 or 904 with the Gear Vendors overdrive gear splitting kit

[Chryco Psycho]

Proform carb not EFI
 Yes Alum heads can help certainly breath better in most cases , torqueflight will lower milage a bit

[Spartan040]

torqueflight will lower milage a bit

Are you sure? I've heard that the Gear Vendors kit, when installed on the TorqueFlite, has been giving 20-25% better mileage at best, because it puts an overdrive into every gear.

[Chryco Psycho]

true but there is always a slippage & heat generated in the torque converter where a clutch is more effcient & there is less drag in turning a std trans over a hydraulic trans

[soundcontrol]

This is interesting. I'm planning to go with a Gen 3 Hemi later also, but I have never driven one, and I really like a lot of torque. I did run a 6-71 blower on a 440 in the mid 80's with 2 Carter 750's and the fuel economy was not bad at all, I measured 21MPG at best, that was driving a long stretch at Highway speed, 3.23 gears. But city driving was another story. Gonna look for those recommended threads also. I guess I really need to drive a new Hemi before I decide.

[HP2]

I built a high torque 440 for my truck that averaged high teens  for mileage in a truck with a carb, 3 speed auto and 4:11 gears hauling a load. Nothing exotic, had iron heads too, but it was a lot of attention to detailed in maximizing the combination that I don't think you'll necessarily find in  your average  shop. This is more than attention to detail of the built but also a  lot of review of the components that go into he build before a wrench is ever turned.

I've been called a liar that this is possible, but I had the results sitting in my garage. I also used some approaches that others said were actually counter productive that turne dout to work just fine. CP has done very similar work and has also run into  his naysayers as well.

You have to really get into the nitty gritty of theory to put this all together and reach beyond basic advertising and marketing claims. I wouldn't ever discourage someone from trying to do it, but I'd also warn you that simply requesting this of the average shop is going to get you a lot of responses that it can't be done, or its going to cost a small fortune to achieve.

This is also why application, usage and budget a  factors as well. If you don't have the means to do this work yourself and are depending on others, then the costs go up exponentially which mean syou then need to really look at teh return on the effort to decide if it is worthwhile. Many times you can get 75% of the way there using  typical techniques that anyone can use, which may be fine for what you do, how you use it and how long you are going to own it.

[Spartan040]

Okay, so let's say I'm going with the 440 in my e-body with the EFI conversion, ported aluminum heads, a new aluminum radiator with a thermostat controlled fan, all blueprinted and flowed and all of that good stuff, running 3:55 gears, with a Gear Vendors Torqueflite 727 or 904 (or a Tremec T56, if I feel like getting really ambitious). Chryco, what was that specific cam grind and what is an OD 833?

Say I've got all that. Could I expect around 16-19 mpg highway, if I'm keeping my foot out of it and just cruising?

[soundcontrol]

Okay, so let's say I'm going with the 440 in my e-body with the EFI conversion, ported aluminum heads, a new aluminum radiator with a thermostat controlled fan, all blueprinted and flowed and all of that good stuff, running 3:55 gears, with a Gear Vendors Torqueflite 727 or 904 (or a Tremec T56, if I feel like getting really ambitious). Chryco, what was that specific cam grind and what is an OD 833?

Say I've got all that. Could I expect around 16-19 mpg highway, if I'm keeping my foot out of it and just cruising?

Someone told me it's better to use a transmission with an overdrive instead of a 727 with GV, had something to do with a lock-up converter, I don't remember the exact reason though, but I made a note to do research on that before I decded on what transmission to use.