440 Six Pack: 915 heads with flat-top pistons... Will compression be too high?

Author Topic: 440 Six Pack: 915 heads with flat-top pistons... Will compression be too high?  (Read 5504 times)

Offline Grec

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I'm getting my 440 rebuilt. Finally.

No stroker or anything, just bored 30 over with flat-top pistons. The motor currently has 915 heads which I know will raise compression approx. 1pt.

What do I need to do to get it to run well on pump gas? Is it simply a matter of using a thicker head gasket?

Or would it be good to go with dished pistons to lower compression?

The guy building the motor is a very competent mechanic, but not a Mopar expert. And I don't know heads. Lol. But I'm trying to do a bit of leg work for him.

Recommendations?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015 - 08:16:04 PM by Grec »
1973 Challenger Rallye
- 440 Six Pack
- A833 4 Speed, 18 Spline
- FE5 Rallye Red on Black




Offline cudabob496

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I had 915 heads on my 440.  Just limited CR to 9.5/1, and used premium gas.
A cam with some good duration will also help minimize detonation also.  If
you get any, a little octance boost can help.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

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Offline 734406pk

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I'm getting my 440 rebuilt. Finally.

No stroker or anything, just bored 30 over with flat-top pistons. The motor currently has 915 heads which I know will raise compression approx. 1pt.

What do I need to do to get it to run well on pump gas? Is it simply a matter of using a thicker head gasket?

Or would it be good to go with dished pistons to lower compression?

The guy building the motor is a very competent mechanic, but not a Mopar expert. And I don't know heads. Lol. But I'm trying to do a bit of leg work for him.

Recommendations?

You will need to take some measurements first. Piston height at TDC, is it below deck, flush or above? Measure in .000 inch. Then cylinder head combustion chamber volume in cc's. Factor in your desired head gasket thickness and use one of the many online compression ratio calculators available to find your static CR. I would stay below 10.5 compression ratio for pump gas, maybe less depending on what octane rating you have locally. 92 octane seems average.
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline 734406pk

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One thing to be aware of is the 915 head was for leaded fuel and doesn't have induction hardened exhaust seats needed for unleaded fuel we have today. This might be an issue depending how many miles you will be driving this car.
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline 1 Wild R/T

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Depending on the measured compression height & the measured chamber volume you'll be around 10.0-10.5... Using a think head gasket could do more harm than good... The best thing about 915 heads is the closed chambers make building a quench/squish engine fairly easy.. Using a thick head gasket eliminates that.... Read  what John Erb has to say about quench...


What is the most, exact precisely defined occurrence in all piston engines? It isn’t ignition timing, combustion, crank indexing, or valve events. It is Top Dead Center. You can’t build an engine with an error at Top Dead Center because TDC is what everything else is measured from. Spark scatter, crank flex and cam timing can move, but TDC is when the piston is closest to the cylinder head in any one cylinder. The combustion process gets serious at Top Dead Center and about 12 degrees after TDC, most engines want to have maximum cylinder pressure. If maximum cylinder pressure occurs 10 degrees earlier or later, power goes away. Normal ignition timing is adjusted to achieve max cylinder pressure at 12 degrees after TDC. If your timing was set at 36 degrees before TDC that is a 48 degree head start on our 12 degree ATDC target. A lot of things can happen in 48 degrees and since different cylinders burn at different rates and don’t even burn at the same rate cycle to cycle, each cylinder would likely benefit from custom timing for each cylinder and each cycle. Special tailored timing is possible but there is an easier way—“Magnificent Quench”. Take a coffee can ½ full of gasoline burning with slow flicking flame. Strike the can with a baseball bat and you have what I would call a “fast burn”, much like what we want in the combustion chamber. The fast burn idea helps our performance engine by shortening the overall burn time and the amount of spark lead (negative torque) dialed in with the distributor. If you go from 36 degrees total to 32 degrees total and power increases, you either shortened the burn time or just had too much timing dialed-in in the first place. If you have really shortened the burn time, you won’t need so much burning going on before Top Dead Center. Now you can retard timing and increase HP. Did you ever have an engine that didn’t seem to care what timing it had? This is not the usual case with a fast burn combustion but an old style engine with big differences in optimum timing cylinder to cylinder will need 40 degrees of timing on some and others only need 26 degrees. If you set the distributor at 34 degrees, it is likely that 4 cylinders will want more timing and 4 cylinders will want less ( V-8). Moving the timing just changes, which cylinders are doing most of the work. Go too far and some cylinders may take a vacation. Now what does quench really do? First, it kicks the burning flame front across and around the cylinder at exactly TDC in all cylinders. Even with spark scatter, the big fire happens as the tight quench blasts the 32 degree old flame around the chamber. Just as with the coffee can, big flame or small flame, hit it with a baseball bat and they are all big instantly. The need for custom cylinder-to-cylinder timing gets minimized with a good quench. The more air activity in a cylinder you have the less ignition timing you are likely to need. When you add extra head gaskets to lower compression you usually lose enough quench that it is like striking the burning coffee can with a pencil. No fire ball here and that .070-.090 quench distance acts like a shock absorber for flame travel by slowing down any naturally occurring chamber activity. A slow burn means you need more timing and you will have more burn variation cycle-to-cycle and cylinder-to-cylinder, result more ping. Our step and step dish pistons are designed not only to maximize quench but to allow the flame to travel to the opposite side of the cylinder at TDC. The further the flame is driven, the faster the burn rate and the less timing is required. The step design also reduces the piston surface area and helps the piston top stay below 600 degree f (necessary to keep out of detonation). All of our forged pistons that are lower compression than a flat-top are step or step dish design. A nice thing about the step design is that it allows us to make a lighter piston. Our hypereutectic AMC, Buick, Chrysler, Ford, Oldsmobile and Pontiac all offer step designs. We cannot design a 302 Chevy step dish piston at 12:1 compression ratio but a lot of engines can use it to generate good pump gas compression ratio. Supercharging with a quench has always been difficult. A step dish is generally friendly to supercharging because you can have increased dish volume while maintaining a quench and cool top land temperatures. You may want to read our new design article for more information. ".

By John Erb
Chief Engineer
KB Performance Piston

Ok, that said depending on the available fuel where you live, your elevation, cam selection & tuning skills 10.5 may work, if you live at sea level & only get 89 octane forget about it...  If you live in Denver it's likely fine...
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Offline Grec

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Thanks, guys.

It's sounding like dished pistons might be the answer I'm looking for...
1973 Challenger Rallye
- 440 Six Pack
- A833 4 Speed, 18 Spline
- FE5 Rallye Red on Black

Offline Chryco Psycho

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you need to retain quench so if the piston is flush / zero deck height & you use a .040 -.050 thick gasket you will retain quench but compression will be close to 11-1 which will be tough on pump fuel .
 If the piston is not flush then you need a thinner gasket to retain quench & the compression remains the same .
 SO a dish piston may be the best solution

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline Grec

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Gotcha. Now I just gotta find some good forged, dished pistons that aren't crazy $$$ :-)
1973 Challenger Rallye
- 440 Six Pack
- A833 4 Speed, 18 Spline
- FE5 Rallye Red on Black

Offline Chryco Psycho

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440 source ?

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline Grec

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They don't have dished pistons for non-stroker applications.

I'm looking at Probe Industries or Keith Black. Leaning towards Probe. Forged. -12cc dish. Should be good to get me to around 9.75:1.  w/ those 915 heads. They seem to have a good reputation, from what I have read.
1973 Challenger Rallye
- 440 Six Pack
- A833 4 Speed, 18 Spline
- FE5 Rallye Red on Black

Offline Grec

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Update on what I went with...

Probe Industries pistons were a bust. Apparently they don't have any in stock and they won't forge a new batch until they have X number of orders for them.

Seems like a dumb business decision, as I don't think many people are going to wait months for them to run new ones. ie. you just cut out the Chrysler RB community. Oh well.

Anyway... I ended up going with Keith Black ICON forged pistons. Same -12 dish, so I should be good with those 915 heads. Good price, too. $499. (most places charge over $600.)

Also picked up a set of those purty 440 Source H-Beam rods. :-)

After 10 years of owning her, I think my Challenger is finally going to be the beast she was meant to be. Woohoo!
1973 Challenger Rallye
- 440 Six Pack
- A833 4 Speed, 18 Spline
- FE5 Rallye Red on Black

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Awesome , you beat me , it took me 30 years

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline Grec

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Lol. Well... she isn't there yet... but there's a bright light shining at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully it's not a train.  :biggrin:
1973 Challenger Rallye
- 440 Six Pack
- A833 4 Speed, 18 Spline
- FE5 Rallye Red on Black