Author Topic: At my wits end help!  (Read 4645 times)

Offline 70RT4SPD

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At my wits end help!
« on: June 27, 2015 - 08:49:30 PM »
Hello all I'm new to this forum so bear with me!  I have a 70 challenger 383 4 speed car.  Recently did a motor swap.  Fresh built 69 HP 383 .030 over flat tops 9.5:1 compression Manley .480/.480 cam 1 7/8 TTI headers and full X pipe exhaust. 

I had the motor running on my homemade engine run stand and it ran like a Swiss watch.  I pulled the original 383 out after it ran terrible come to find out had very weak compression (ie.. 30lbs at #8 cylinder)

I now have the new 383 in the car and it runs just as terrible missing, surging idle, won't stay running, etc...  Also the starter makes an evil screeching noise when it fires now too.  Sometimes it won't eve  kick over at all.

I changed the coil, ballast resistor, orange box ecu, plugs, wires, cap, rotor.  Changed the intake valley pan and intake and 2 different carbs and no matter what it still runs bad.  Basically I have everything on the car electrically and fuel wise as the new engine had on the run cart when it ran great.  I'm thinking I have an electrical problem but don't know where to start.  Any one else have a problem like this??  Any help is greatly appreciated. 

Cheers and Mopar or no car!




Offline 734406pk

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2015 - 10:23:41 PM »
Wow, you sure have a lot going on there! I can imagine your frustration! When the engine was on the stand, I assume the same starter/trans was installed and no screeching? For the stalling ect, I would disconnect the car electrical system from the ignition and connect a remote on/off switch and starter button. Disconnect the vacuum booster for power brakes if you have one and run the engine off of a "known good"remote fuel source. This will seperate the car from the engine, breaking down 1/2 of the possible causes. This way you can tell if you have a vehicle problem that is causing an engine issue or the problem is with the engine itself. Use due caution with the remote start switch, it bypasses the neutral safety feature so be certain to set the e brake and trans in neutral. Post back results and good luck!
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline HP2

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2015 - 11:17:04 AM »
Two distinct differences between your run in stand and the car are the fuel system and electrical system. I would stop changing things on the engine and concentrate on  the car. The issues  will be within the chassis electrical, fuel delivery, or vacuum systems.

I now have the new 383 in the car and it runs just as terrible missing, surging idle, won't stay running, etc...  Also the starter makes an evil screeching noise when it fires now too.  Sometimes it won't eve  kick over at all.

Out of all of your posting, this is the area we need more clarification on with specific  times, sequences,  and events.

Starting at the begining of  a start up sequence, if  sometimes the starter won't turn over, this  could be a faulty ignition switch, bad wiring in nueteral safety switch, or bulkhead connection problems. Screeching during turning over,  inadequate amps for the starter, intermittent electrical signal to  key componets, bad starter motor, bound up starter motor, or someting  not  bolted on correctly to cause excessive loading on the starter. On the idle, do you find yourself having to turn it up to keep it idling and unable to  dial in the mixture at lower rpm? This could be a  vacuum leak in the brake booster or the  heater controls. Missing  I would  look at the harness wiring and connections between the  ecu, ballast, and coil. I'd also verify  the  ECU wiring is correct into the  harness. Again, more potential bulkhead issues could also contribute to this.

Offline 1 Wild R/T

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2015 - 12:18:31 PM »
Wow, you sure have a lot going on there! I can imagine your frustration! When the engine was on the stand, I assume the same starter/trans was installed and no screeching? For the stalling ect, I would disconnect the car electrical system from the ignition and connect a remote on/off switch and starter button. Disconnect the vacuum booster for power brakes if you have one and run the engine off of a "known good"remote fuel source. This will seperate the car from the engine, breaking down 1/2 of the possible causes. This way you can tell if you have a vehicle problem that is causing an engine issue or the problem is with the engine itself. Use due caution with the remote start switch, it bypasses the neutral safety feature so be certain to set the e brake and trans in neutral. Post back results and good luck!

I'm betting this is your issue.. And your low compression on 8 was a burned valve because the booster takes it's vacuum from runner 8 & over time would burn the valve...
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Offline tman

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2015 - 12:45:02 PM »
Check firing order too.

Offline 734406pk

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2015 - 05:40:35 PM »
I'm betting this is your issue.. And your low compression on 8 was a burned valve because the booster takes it's vacuum from runner 8 & over time would burn the valve...

I was thinking the same thing. By disconnecting the engine from the vehicle (figuratively) and running from remote sources as on the stand, you can reconnect one vehicle system at a time until the issue is found. Good luck and post back results or for further assistance.
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2015 - 12:03:25 AM »
Power brakes ? you may have a vacuum leak into the booster from the rear of the intake leaning out the cylinder where the vacuum is drawn from

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline 70RT4SPD

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2015 - 10:58:57 PM »
Thank you for all the input guys very greatly appreciated.  I'll try to clarify a few things.  I've been running a MP ignition conversion kit on the challenger for a good 15 years now.  It's never acted up until this year (if that's even the problem).  I knew the original 383 was getting tired and after how bad it ran at the first start of spring I decided to do the swap.  Seeing as now the new motor runs just as bad in the car with all the new components from my engine run cart it's looking like bad wiring but I'm just unsure.

I do know it's gonna have considerably less vacuum and low end with the Manley cam that's in the new engine (very similar specs to the legendary 484 purple shaft).  I'm a sucker for that choppy idle!  but it just sputters horribly and will only stay running above 1500+ RPM and once I let off it cuts right out and stalls.

I have isolated the brake booster out of the equation and put a pipe plug in the port on the intake.   Made no difference at this time.  I haven't had much time this week to mess with it much but I have a fully charged battery and checked a few voltage readings. 

With key on,  I have battery voltage at the starter main feed,  hot side of the ballast, and the relay.  I only have 4V at the positive side of the coil though.  Shouldn't that be 12V with key on or is that normal?  I'm going to recheck all grounds and look for any bad wiring around the bulkhead tomorrow.

Offline dutch

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2015 - 05:23:05 AM »
Did you try another ecu?  I`ve had 1 pulling tricks on me just as you describe.  I`ll never trust them again...  :grinno:
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Offline 734406pk

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2015 - 07:01:34 AM »
Thank you for all the input guys very greatly appreciated.  I'll try to clarify a few things.  I've been running a MP ignition conversion kit on the challenger for a good 15 years now.  It's never acted up until this year (if that's even the problem).  I knew the original 383 was getting tired and after how bad it ran at the first start of spring I decided to do the swap.  Seeing as now the new motor runs just as bad in the car with all the new components from my engine run cart it's looking like bad wiring but I'm just unsure.

I do know it's gonna have considerably less vacuum and low end with the Manley cam that's in the new engine (very similar specs to the legendary 484 purple shaft).  I'm a sucker for that choppy idle!  but it just sputters horribly and will only stay running above 1500+ RPM and once I let off it cuts right out and stalls.

I have isolated the brake booster out of the equation and put a pipe plug in the port on the intake.   Made no difference at this time.  I haven't had much time this week to mess with it much but I have a fully charged battery and checked a few voltage readings. 

With key on,  I have battery voltage at the starter main feed,  hot side of the ballast, and the relay.  I only have 4V at the positive side of the coil though.  Shouldn't that be 12V with key on or is that normal?  I'm going to recheck all grounds and look for any bad wiring around the bulkhead tomorrow.

4 volts at the coil positive sounds low, but if the key switch was left on for a while, the ballast resistor may have choked off some current. I would bypass the vehicle's fuel and electrical system and even disconnect the exhaust as well (excess back pressure ?). Return the engine to the way it was running on the stand and see if it will run normally. Your OP reads that you have already changed all of the ignition components with no improvement. Is that correct?
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline 70RT4SPD

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2015 - 11:34:38 AM »
The car has a full TTI exhaust system 1 7/8 primary tube headers with a full 2 1/2 X pipe system so it should be minimal back pressure.  I'm gonna try to seperate the ignition system from the car via a starter switch and relay.  If that cures it then it may be time for a pretty new painless wiring harness!

Offline 70RT4SPD

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2015 - 06:43:35 PM »
I have some odd readings going on.  I cleaned all the contacts at the wiring harness connectors on the firewall.  Nothing was burnt or corroded.  When I disconnect the orange box connector and check for voltage at the positive side of the coil it goes up to 11.8 Volts with key on.  Also when putting a multimeter between the negative battery cable and negative post on the battery when disconnected I have 12 volts????  Wonder if my battery is shorted or something stupid???

Offline RzeroB

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2015 - 07:29:38 PM »
Sounds like a grounding issue could be the culprit. I have a friend that had a similar experience with his Vette and it turned out that the there was an inadequate ground between the engine and the chassis. With everything all freshly painted, that all important continuity for the ground between the engine and chassis can be interrupted or limited to where it causes problems.
Cheers!
Tom
St Louis, MO

Former owner of 16 classic Mopars. "It is better to have owned (Mopars) and lost then to have never owned at all" (apologies to Alfred Lord Tennyson)

Offline 734406pk

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2015 - 09:27:12 PM »
I have some odd readings going on.  I cleaned all the contacts at the wiring harness connectors on the firewall.  Nothing was burnt or corroded.  When I disconnect the orange box connector and check for voltage at the positive side of the coil it goes up to 11.8 Volts with key on.  Also when putting a multimeter between the negative battery cable and negative post on the battery when disconnected I have 12 volts????  Wonder if my battery is shorted or something stupid???

12 volts when disconnected is normal as the VM is completing the circuit to ground. However, you may be on to something with the 11.8 v at the coil positive when the box is disconnected. See if you can locate the blue wire at the ballast resistor. This would be the switched ignition feed from the key switch. With the ignition system fully connected (orange box, coil etc) measure the loaded (key on engine off) voltage at this blue wire to ground on the engine block. There should be full battery voltage available. Post back the results when you have time.
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline 70RT4SPD

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Re: At my wits end help!
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2015 - 03:44:55 PM »
 I think I figured it out gents I had a crazy thought and disconnected the tach lead off of the negative side of the coil and wouldn't u know it the motor runs great.  It's an older sunpro tach that must be shorted out.  My starter still screeches but that must just be a conicedence.