G-Machine Chassis?

[Spartan040]

Schwartz Performance makes an aftermarket chassis for the Challenger, and it appears to be much stronger and much more stable than the original. They say the purpose is so that the chassis takes the brunt of the force from the engine torque and the g forces when making hard turns, rather than the more flexible body taking the hit. They can provide a rear end, or you can use your own. It comes with their proprietary suspension system (I believe it's a coil-over setup with 4 link rear suspension) and your choice of brake package. As configured, mine would be about $16,000. Anyone think that it's worth it? My goal here is a high performance pro touring/resto mod car.

[ToxicWolf]

Put that together with a Dynacorn body and you are ready to go.   

[Spartan040]

Put that together with a Dynacorn body and you are ready to go.   

Lol I would love to do that if I had the money, but I'm most likely going to have to find an original car within the $10,000-$20,000 range (I have seen them for that lllittle in good shape) and stick the chassis on there. If I have to go Dynacorn, I'm going to stick with the chassis they provide, at first anyway.

[johns cuda shop]

Been thinking about my next project. I would to do a A-body next. My thoughts was a Art Morrison Chassis... But out of reality it really depends on what you plan to do.. 

[moparman82]

How much weight does it add? About the same as a full US Car Tool chassis stiffening kit?

[Spartan040]

How much weight does it add? About the same as a full US Car Tool chassis stiffening kit?

Actually I think the G-Machine is about 120 pounds lighter, give or take 10-20 pounds

[HP2]

Schwartz Performance, Art Morrsion, Eckarts, Roadster Shop, et all, frames all have the same issues as any other frame car posses; as a ladder design they all twist some amount, they add weight, and are separate from the body structure so they require specialized means of attachement. Using any of these under an E body, or B body, or any uni-body car turns it into a vehicle similar to any other body on frame car, such as a Chevelle, GTO, Thunderbird, Imperial, etc. Is that good or bad, all depends on the rule set of the organization you run with and your intended application.

A full blown stiffening kit added to a uni-body can create more rigidity without the weight penalty. I also have yet to see any of these frame conversion cars out beating on them like the Hotchkis boys have done with the stock E body and select reinforcement.  Can they hang with them, maybe, but I haven't seen it happen yet. However, I do see a lot of high end, ultimate style builds using frames with lots of pretty powder coating and paint work.

If it matters at all, I'd also speculate that a  frame conversion Mopar will not retain value the same as a reinforced uni-body car will. I know that isn't high on some people's list, but if you are the sort that tires of a car after several years only to move on to the next build, it could be a consideration.

[brads70]

If that the route that appeals to you, I'd price out building it all yourself. 16K buys a lot of steel ,4 coil overs and a rack. 
If it matters... there is also what is it worth when your done? Like will most people want a somewhat original car or a full on custom?
For 16K you would have a lot of change leftover maximizing the stock chassis to it's full potential. 
Mopars have always for the most part been used/though of as a straight line vehicle , they CAN be made to handle very well.

[Spartan040]

Alright, so if I wanted to keep the stock chassis, what would I have to do to it and the suspension to get it to handle as good as it possibly can? I'm thinking a Hotchkis TVS would be involved (which includes subframe connectors), anything else?

[moparman82]

Hotchkis TVS is a great setup, and keeps the mopar style suspension with handling better than a new set chally (look up the comparison video online).  After my chat with hotchkis, I found that there was really no difference in price between buying all the parts as individuals vs ordering the TVS kit.  The reason I bring that up, is that the U.S. car tool chassis stiffening kit comes with torque boxes, fender-to-cowl braces, lower radiator supoort braces, AND subframe connectors, all for about $150 more that a pair of hotchkis sub frame connectors.  If it were me, I would use the U.S. CAR TOOL kit, plus the rest of the hotchkis stuff, and u will need some upgraded torsion bars, I would recommend some big Firm Feel 1.12 or bigger.  And don't skimp on shocks

[brads70]

Depends on what your wanting, like ride, small block or big block etc...

US car tool,- ( chassis stiffening parts) cowl brace, sub frame connectors?
Firm Feel- torsion bars, fast ratio steering arms, stage 3 power steering box. suspension parts
Hotchkis- sway bars, shocks, upper control arms , shocks
DrDiff rear end true trac center section , brake kits
QA1- double adjustable shocks, suspension parts
Rims and tires.... 18" not much selection in 15"   Good 200 tread wear tires.

[Spartan040]

Depends on what your wanting, like ride, small block or big block etc...

US car tool,- ( chassis stiffening parts) cowl brace, sub frame connectors?
Firm Feel- torsion bars, fast ratio steering arms, stage 3 power steering box. suspension parts
Hotchkis- sway bars, shocks, upper control arms , shocks
DrDiff rear end true trac center section , brake kits
QA1- double adjustable shocks, suspension parts
Rims and tires.... 18" not much selection in 15"   Good 200 tread wear tires.

Big block, a 440/512 stroker. I want a smooth ride, feeling like a more modern car, with the ability to corner very well at speed.

[cudazappa]

Alright, so if I wanted to keep the stock chassis, what would I have to do to it and the suspension to get it to handle as good as it possibly can? I'm thinking a Hotchkis TVS would be involved (which includes subframe connectors), anything else?

Good as it possibly can?  That's a loaded question as Mopar Mitch has his setup much more aggressive than just about all of us.  He runs 50tw slicks, 1.24" torsion bars, and just about every trick that the SCCA allows in ESP class. 

I also know of a track 'cuda on the west coast that just picked up 1.375" NASCAR t-bars from Marty Robbins.  He also runs a full cage for maximum chassis stiffness.  Ultimate handling is race car handling and there are several guys that are doing it with t-bars, and racing them.  The current leader in the CAM class in San Diego is in a low buck Valiant (claims less than $20k) with the full Hotchkis kit and has won 7 out of 8 events (7 in a row).

As I learned a long time ago, make the chassis as stiff as possible (or as rules/preference allow), choose your tires, and tune the suspension to that.  It comes down to wheel rate, and geometry. 

The tires don't care how they are suspended.  Coils, t-bars, leads, or bags, doesn't matter.  The wheel rates work with the tire to control the ride and friction of the tire.  The limitation of t-bars is the limited sizes and as such the rates ~400#, but there are plenty of coil spring guys willing to go as wild as you want (more market means more options).  Many people won't see the need for larger than 400# of wheel rate..

What chassis can do that for you?  Well the stock one does pretty good in the geometry department.  Hotchkis improves that.  Brad runs a hybrid setup that takes it a level beyond them.  Then you have the other systems running coil overs and rack and pinion of which I personally cannot comment on, but they seem to do ok.  Limit in the rear is a live axle which you can only do so much with before you put in an IRS system which can handle better than a live axle.

There's a lot of options for building a car that can handle, as such something for every budget/want.  You can bling it out or build something low budget and both can work equally well.

Personally, I am a hotchkis/firm feel guy for a variety of reasons.  Currently installed the whole TVS and waiting to do the alignment once I can fit it in between diaper changes.  I run a firm feel steering box and big 1.18 t bars.  Shocks are currently qa1 single adjustable a in the front with bilsteins in the rear.  I have subframe connectors installed (before the TVS came to market) and my next goal is some CAP frame stiffness forward of the firewall.  Currently the best thing I have done is the qa1 shocks in the front to control the bars as I maxed out the bilsteins.  The Hotchkis single adjust Fox shocks are also on the soon list.  With my sticky tires I surprise people with the handling.  Not quite a corvette, but I push mine harder than most other car owners.

[Spartan040]

Depends on what your wanting, like ride, small block or big block etc...

US car tool,- ( chassis stiffening parts) cowl brace, sub frame connectors?
Firm Feel- torsion bars, fast ratio steering arms, stage 3 power steering box. suspension parts
Hotchkis- sway bars, shocks, upper control arms , shocks
DrDiff rear end true trac center section , brake kits
QA1- double adjustable shocks, suspension parts
Rims and tires.... 18" not much selection in 15"   Good 200 tread wear tires.

Just checked on the Firm Feel Fast Ratio steering arms, the headers I have selected are TTI 1-3/4" attached to a 440 and their website says those don't work, that it hits the idler arm. It seems they have different models, the Pitman and Idler? I'm assuming I want Pitman

[brads70]

Just checked on the Firm Feel Fast Ratio steering arms, the headers I have selected are TTI 1-3/4" attached to a 440 and their website says those don't work, that it hits the idler arm. It seems they have different models, the Pitman and Idler? I'm assuming I want Pitman

Yes, TTI's don't fit , I went with headmans for that reason but they fit like crap in other places....  You will need both the pitman and idler.  The different part #s are because of small or large sector shaft boxes.