Author Topic: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?  (Read 6897 times)

Offline Spartan040

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Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« on: August 06, 2015 - 04:37:04 PM »
Debating between these two power steering boxes, what are the differences? What's the steering ratio on the Firm Feel?




Offline dfrazz

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2015 - 04:47:44 PM »
Besides being cheaper, FF is just a rebuilt box with tighter steering feel (more like modern cars).  Borgeson is a different box that is not only tighter feel but 10:1 (I think) ratio too, and it is a smaller box.  I also believe you need to modify your column, but I could be wrong.  Borgeson is more expensive too.

Offline brads70

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2015 - 04:54:10 PM »
I have stage 3 FF with the fast ratio arms ( headers that fit with this is limited FYI)
I'm not a fan of the Borgeson for a few reasons...
There are very few people in this world I'd trust welding a structural part like a steering box, the risk vs rewards just don't pan out for me!
Second is the pitman arm fitment issues a quick google search will enlighten you
Third is the  sloppy fitment on the k-frame, they seem to be all over the place on different angles
4th is the cost, factor in the plumbing lines and adapter to steering column in addition to the box itself ..... kills it for me. I might be able to lump the cost if the other factors were not present.
Just my  :2cents: :wave:
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015 - 05:28:03 PM by brads70 »
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

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Offline Spartan040

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2015 - 05:19:41 PM »
The Borgeson is only 14:1, nowhere near 10:1. Perhaps I should go with the FF box and attach some fast ratio arms for a 12.7:1 ratio

Offline dfrazz

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2015 - 06:10:11 PM »
The Borgeson is only 14:1, nowhere near 10:1. Perhaps I should go with the FF box and attach some fast ratio arms for a 12.7:1 ratio

Thanks, I was guessing at 10:1 and knew it didn't sound right.  Are you running headers?

Offline Katfish

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2015 - 06:20:50 PM »
Out of curiously, which way does the fast ratio pitman and idler arms move the steering linkage?
Further back and lower?

Offline brads70

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2015 - 06:40:38 PM »
Out of curiously, which way does the fast ratio pitman and idler arms move the steering linkage?
Further back and lower?

Just further back as far as I can tell.
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Spartan040

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2015 - 08:48:23 PM »
Thanks, I was guessing at 10:1 and knew it didn't sound right.  Are you running headers?

No problem, and I will be running TTI's once I actually have the car (just planning the build right now). I know the 1-3/4" headers have a problem clearing the fast ratio steering arms, so I'll be running 2" headers with the 3.5" collectors, and using 3" reducers to make it connect to the 3" TTI exhaust

Offline BIGSHCLUNK

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2015 - 09:47:23 PM »
I run a STEER N GEAR Level 3 ( only because they were closer/faster turn around than FF) Absolutely positively NO ISSUES  :2cents:  :bigsmile:
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Offline Mopar Mitch

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2015 - 11:03:12 AM »
In my opinion, the best discovery/advantage of the Borgsn box is the reduced weight... lower weight here/there, etc., in particular in the front of the car, adds up to faster performance (accel/decel.. and E/SPspecially cornering).  As we know, the Borgsn box is a more modern design and thus gives better road feel and response.

Despite the hassles of the Borgnsn box, IF I could run it, "legally" in the SCCA E/SP classification for Solo/autocross, I'd definitely do it.. E/SPecially, again, for the weight savings.   The Borgnsn box would be great to add for any of our cars campaigning in the CAM SCCA class of Solo racing, or else with the C/P class.

I run a T/A ps box (having the longer Fast Ratio Pitman arm, as well as the longer c-body idler arm to correct the steering from the factory oversight with the T/A ps box.    Adding the longer arms (pitman/idler) to any regular Mopar old-style ps box also gives the same fast-ratio of ~12.7:1.. and, using a non-T/A ps box (ie: regular) allows slightly tighter turning radius than a T/A box... but also scrubs the frame rails a bit more, pending rim offset/backspacing/size/diameter of tires.
 
I often wonder what is the difference between the Firm Feel rebuilt boxes vs. the Steer and Gear?  Anyone know?  Internal parts, springs, etc???  I'm considering having my T/A box rebuilt (1st time for it, ever)... slight fluid leak from the lower seal.... and determine what stage.. II or III would be best for me (pylon autocrossing requires very fast motion back-forth... although I'm also more recently active with HSAX/HPDE road course events).
Autocross/road racers go in deeper... and come out harder!

See  MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, AUGUST 2006 ISSUE for featured article and details on my autocross T/A.

Offline BergmanAutoCraft

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2015 - 03:14:05 PM »
I know Brad has his concerns with the pitman fitment. We just installed a large sector at the shop the end of the shaft is flush with the nut when the lock washer is compressed. Thread doesn't hang out of the nut like oe, but flush is good with me. The new generation box bolts directly to the k cleanly. As long as the bolts are torqued properly, no issues there either. The good part is this box is 15lbs lighter and sports a 14:1 ratio against the 15.7:1 stock box. The big bonus is the feel. There simply is no comparison to the oe box. Razor sharp response off center unlike the dead on center feel of oe boxes regardless of rebuild. My fittings and coupler make it a 100% bolt in as well. Boxes are all brand new and come with a 3 year warranty.

Offline Spartan040

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2015 - 03:21:09 PM »
I know Brad has his concerns with the pitman fitment. We just installed a large sector at the shop the end of the shaft is flush with the nut when the lock washer is compressed. Thread doesn't hang out of the nut like oe, but flush is good with me. The new generation box bolts directly to the k cleanly. As long as the bolts are torqued properly, no issues there either. The good part is this box is 15lbs lighter and sports a 14:1 ratio against the 15.7:1 stock box. The big bonus is the feel. There simply is no comparison to the oe box. Razor sharp response off center unlike the dead on center feel of oe boxes regardless of rebuild. My fittings and coupler make it a 100% bolt in as well. Boxes are all brand new and come with a 3 year warranty.

What would happen if someone took your steering box and attached fast ratio arms to it?

Offline dfrazz

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2015 - 06:01:40 PM »
I know Brad has his concerns with the pitman fitment. We just installed a large sector at the shop the end of the shaft is flush with the nut when the lock washer is compressed. Thread doesn't hang out of the nut like oe, but flush is good with me. The new generation box bolts directly to the k cleanly. As long as the bolts are torqued properly, no issues there either. The good part is this box is 15lbs lighter and sports a 14:1 ratio against the 15.7:1 stock box. The big bonus is the feel. There simply is no comparison to the oe box. Razor sharp response off center unlike the dead on center feel of oe boxes regardless of rebuild. My fittings and coupler make it a 100% bolt in as well. Boxes are all brand new and come with a 3 year warranty.

Do you not require the column shaft to be modified on e and/or b body cars?

Offline BergmanAutoCraft

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2015 - 10:28:50 PM »
You can use fast ratio arms but I have not tried it. My coupler is a bolt on. No column mods.

Offline Spartan040

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Re: Firm Feel Stage 3 or Borgeson?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2015 - 12:31:14 PM »
You can use fast ratio arms but I have not tried it. My coupler is a bolt on. No column mods.

What would happen to the steering ratio? Would it turn into a 10.7:1 ratio?