Author Topic: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?  (Read 13613 times)

Offline ChallengerHK

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Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« on: September 22, 2015 - 08:20:12 AM »
There are a few threads on a Gen III swap, but I want a specific focus here. I'm trying to determine how cheaply a Gen III swap can be done. What is the minimum that is necessary to get a Gen III in an e-body, running, just like it ran in whatever donor car it came from? In cases where there are pieces fro the donor car that can work, but which may not work optimally, what are the advantages and disadvantages? My guess so far:

Motor
Electric fuel pump
Motor mounts
Oil pan and pickup (I'm guessing these cannot be swapped from an LA motor, but tell me if I'm wrong)

Some parts of the engine-to-trans interface are going to need to be swapped out, but which parts?

Exhaust manifolds - are there any stock manifolds which will work well in an e-body?

Hoe far do the accessories extend toward the front vis-a-vis an LA motor, and does this call for special cooling system mods?



"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

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Offline oh58dscout

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2015 - 08:42:44 AM »
Disclaimer-I have not done this swap, but did buy a 6.1 yesterday.

A few things you will need-

electric fan

depending on your transmission, a solution(there are a few-is lokar cable bastardized-do a search) for the drive by wire pedal

someone smarter than me to alter the wiring harness-or buy one from Modern Muscle or some such company

I have read a few threads I read a few guys had problems with header/mount clearance issue-so going with cheaper pieces may require a hammer.

Certainly more stuff, but it is early in the morning and drank too much wine with my out of town guests last light.......

Offline soundcontrol

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2015 - 09:05:43 AM »
Following this, looking for engine now. Maybe this is the proper use for the popcorn smiley...  :popcorn:
/ Ken
Restoration thread: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=102525.0
topic=108917.new#new

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2015 - 10:06:12 AM »
No practical experience but I've observed a bunch & would say it depends first of all on what you pay for the motor/tranny to begin with.
Just happened to see a show last night that they picked up a Hemi/6-speed from a 2014-Challenger, said it cost $8,500.00..didn't mention which one but I'm assuming a 5.7.
There's older less desirable combinations out there I imagine that could be had for at least half that.  Keeping fuel injection there's computers & wiring to deal with.. Those custom harnesses & reprogrammed computers seem to be quite pricey 2K+ a piece I believe. If you convert to a carb it might save a few but the new tranny has it's needs that have to be addressed if it's an auto.
Modifications to fit your e-body would cost something..custom drive shaft, I imagine a new style cooling system could run another 2K+++
4k+2k+2k+2k+++= 10K+++ I'm guessing at a minimum...   
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Offline HP2

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2015 - 03:37:51 PM »
If you have some time to kill, here is a lengthy write up of the process, warts and all.

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1577339/let-the-hemi-swap-begin.html#Post1577339

Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2015 - 04:00:41 PM »
Thanks, Tony. When I do have time to kill I'll ready that, one way or another.

It sounds so far like the fly in the ointment will be the wire harness. I had figured that I could just use the wire harness from a donor car with some suitable mods, but it's sounding like that's not likely.


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

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Offline Katfish

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2015 - 08:53:29 PM »
Following along too........

Offline GoodysGotaCuda

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2015 - 09:04:47 PM »
Excluding my transmission, I estimate I'll be in my basic 5.7L swap for about $5,500-6,000. That's a rebuilt engine, cam, aftermarket ECU w/wiring, all new accessories, new radiator, fuel tank, fuel pump, motor mounts, oil pan, headers, throttle body, gaskets, spark plugs, etc. etc.

This is me doing all of the work and putting a number on taking an LA engine out and putting an, essentially, new 5.7L in the car on EFI. The transmission itself, bundled with all of the auto>manual parts is about $6,000 with a brand new Tremec T56 Magnum. But the post is talking about bare minimum for the engine swap, you can use a 904, 727, a833, etc, so that's not included.

Once you start talking 6.1L add about $3,000+
Once you talk OEM ECU, you'll need some other work there I don't want to deal with
New model automatic transmission? I have no idea on the cost there

And I'll add the current model Challenger transmission isn't very conducive to installing in our old cars, the shifter position isn't the greatest along with some other nuances.


Unfortunately there are a lot of vague posts on various forums that don't quite get the answers they need. Most of the time, the answer boils down to "it depends". I see posts like this quite a bit asking what's the bare minimum, then they go off on how they want a new engine, a 6.1L, upgrades, etc...quite missing the point. If you want the true bottom dollar, you're ready to wait for deals, you're okay with a used/good engine...I'd say about $4500-$5,000 will get you a running 5.7L w/EFI.


 I get a lot of my swap information from a select couple of guys that have 6.1L engines in their cars. The info around this swap is extremely scattered. I recommend everyone interested to pursue swap information on the specific New-Hemi subforum at ForAbodiesOnly.com as well as the Facebook group "Gen 3 Hemi Swap". These two sources are the most densely populated with people dealing with this powertrain swap.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015 - 09:12:50 PM by GoodysGotaCuda »
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Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2015 - 09:36:44 PM »
I guess I wasn't sufficiently clear in the first post. What I'm looking for is the list of parts that are required to make the swap and make it run and drive. Not worried about costs at the moment; that would come later.



"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

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Offline GoodysGotaCuda

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2015 - 09:57:19 PM »
I guess I wasn't sufficiently clear in the first post. What I'm looking for is the list of parts that are required to make the swap and make it run and drive. Not worried about costs at the moment; that would come later.


EFI or Carb?
Mechanical throttle or electronic?
New or "old" transmission?
Auto or Manual?
What K-member?


The radiator pickup points are inverse, I believe, of a LA Small block. So I'm not sure what you have will work or not work. The accessories don't stick out anything more than normal and you can run a mechanical [truck] fan if you didn't want an e-fan.
Build Page: Goody's 'Cuda Build Page
1976 Dodge Warlock
1972 Barracuda - 5.7 Hemi + T56 Magnum

Wheel & Tire Specs:Link

Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2015 - 07:13:55 AM »

EFI or Carb?
Mechanical throttle or electronic?
New or "old" transmission?
Auto or Manual?
What K-member?


The radiator pickup points are inverse, I believe, of a LA Small block. So I'm not sure what you have will work or not work. The accessories don't stick out anything more than normal and you can run a mechanical [truck] fan if you didn't want an e-fan.

Good points all.

1 - I think the only way I will do this, if I do it, is to pick up a complete motor with the EFI, so...EFI
2 - This I hadn't even thought of. However, my understanding is that there's a drive-by-wire adapter kit available. This would be a decision driven by cost.
3 & 4 - I'd either use my 727 or see about a 518, but from my point of view, very little to do here. IF I went the 518 route I'd just wire it to a toggle for now.
5 - V8 K-frame that's in the car now.
6 - Did not know about the radiator points, but aren't the pickups on the early LA motors reversed as well? I seem to recall having to swap out the water pump for a 70s pump when I put the 69 340 in.
7 - e-fan is fine, but I have the low amp alternator, so I wonder if the power draw will be too great. OTOH, upgrading the alternator is probably pretty simple.


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

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Offline soundcontrol

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2015 - 07:56:28 AM »
I'm getting a quote and a complete list of everything I need from Bouchillion soon, been mailing info back and forth with them for a few days now. Gonna use my 727 to start with, standard K-frame. My decision soon is if I should find a used 6.1 or borrow some more money and get a crate 6.4L.
/ Ken
Restoration thread: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=102525.0
topic=108917.new#new

Offline oh58dscout

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2015 - 09:04:24 AM »
If you go 518, I wouldn't toggle it. Get the switches to run it. I have a 2 pin that will go behind my 6.1, there is so much info here on this site about doing it there is no reason not to.

The pedal thing doesn't seem to be that difficult, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Oil pan is a must. As an oil filter adapter.

The alternator bit-the stock hemi alt is a much higher output. Much higher. I think some people are stepping that thing down some.

I agree with the For A Bodies Only hemi forum. I frequent that site a lot due to the volume of guys there.

Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2015 - 09:28:51 AM »
If you go 518, I wouldn't toggle it. Get the switches to run it. I have a 2 pin that will go behind my 6.1, there is so much info here on this site about doing it there is no reason not to.

The reasons not to are time, effort and money. I'm looking for the minimum amount of stuff that has to be changed to get a running, driving car. There are lots of "nice to have things" that add only a few days or a few hundred dollars ... and then when all is said and done, and you've done several nice to have things, you've added months and thousands of dollars.


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

Advice Thread - Taking Pictures Of Cars

Offline Katfish

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Re: Gen III Hemi swap - what is the minimum?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2015 - 10:03:05 AM »
I'm in same camp as HK, already did the 518 and it's awesome.
It's what is motivating me to look at the Gen3.  Car is just so much more fun to drive now.
Following along for the "E-body GenIII Swap for Novices" like the 518 thread.

So you guys please keeps detailed notes/costs/trade-offs.......