Author Topic: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value  (Read 10230 times)

Offline Jalaska907

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2015 - 09:18:00 PM »
Yea I agree with Cody....Good luck with the car. :drunk:

Never did I say I didnt agrre with Cody price point.  In fact I think he is spot on.  I do disagree with the fact that he feels that its not a good restoration.  I would say its perfect for a resto, why not fix it before there is any rust issues?  Rust issues skyrocket restoration costs.  Also, for it not being original enough?  How is that? Im just looking for insight on how he justified that conclusion.

As far as me not doing a nut and bolt resto, sorry but I have.  It may not have been perfect, but I did it.  It want a mopar either, and certainly wasn't what this car is.

I've contacted and have written quotes by two very reputable shops, and have also sent both shops very detailed pics of every aspect of the car.  Quote from a west coast shop said to commit no more than 65k and they said that lower price was because of the rust and dent free body.  Also the majority of the original parts on the car are in good working order, and there is very few non original parts on it.  The other shop was on the east coast and said to commit 75k, but my shipping costs almost tripled getting it there.

The reason I ask value on the car, was to see if I was close to what I felt the car was valued, so no I didnt pay $1 dollar for the car that was previously stated, and I feel I paid a fair value for the car. 





Offline anlauto

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2015 - 09:41:28 PM »
I can't speak for Cody, but you just stated exactly what we're saying....

I complete resto will cost $65K-$75K. Personally I think those estimates are on the low side for a correct OE resto. (just my opinion) but I restore cars for a living so I might be bias.

Cody pegged the current value at $35K -$40K, maybe as high as $50K if assembled as is.

Doing the math, that would bring one's investment to $100K-$115K possibly $125K which is way above the current market value for a purple 4spd T/A. :2cents:

Meaning this car is NOT a good candidate for someone to purchase from you at the current market rate listed above and preform a full OE resto.

It doesn't mean that you shouldn't restore the car yourself, I'm guessing your current investment is a lot lower, and your intentions are not to sell it for profit.

I say go for it and enjoy it :burnout:
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Offline Cuda Cody

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2015 - 08:46:06 AM »
 :iagree:  With Allen.  When I say it's not a good candidate for a restoration it's not meant to be a dig on the car.  Great car, just not one that should be restored by a shop.  Let me explain.  Restoration and correct OE restoration can be expensive.  Doing a full OE (right down to the correct inspection marks and all) restoration would cost about $85K IMO.  Doing a nice restoration would be about $65K.  Here's how I see the numbers:

Lets assume you paid $20K for the car.

Option #1 = Sell the car. 
     Sell it for $35K (- the $20K you paid) and you have $15,000 in your pocket.  Or you can keep and drive it and it doesn't really hurt the value. 

Option #2 = Nice Restoration
    Cost $65K (+ the $20K you paid) and you're in to it $85K.  And you have a car worth about $75,000 in the end.
    and taking a chance they "find" anything while doing the car that moves the cost up

Option #3 = Top End OE Restoration
   Cost $80K (+ the $20K you paid) and you're in to it $100K.  And you have a car worth about $90,000 in the end.
   and taking a chance they "find" anything while doing the car that moves the cost up

So in my opinion this car is not a good candidate for a restoration.  You'll almost for sure be losing money if you restore it if you paid anywhere near $20K.  And really be losing money if you bought it for $35K market value and tried to restore it.  Now, if you want to restore the car yourself, that might be a good option.  But the car is nice enough as it is to get it running and enjoy it for not much money.  It would be a very nice driving car and pretty tough to be the cool factor for the money spent.  That's just my opinion (you asked / I answered) and should not make you change whatever you want to do with it.  If you do get it restored by a shop I would suggest doing a lot of research on the shop.  Ask for previous customers phones numbers of people they have done work with in the past and call & talk to them.  Not just one, but several past customers.  Do a google search on them and post here and on other sites asking for customers they have done business with.  I can not tell you how many times I've heard nightmare stories of guys being burned during restorations.
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Offline Cuda Cody

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2015 - 08:52:26 AM »
As for being original.  The top dollar original cars that bring the best money are ones that have not been touched.  They are what is called 'all original" because they have not been painted, rebuilt, restored or had work done to them.  They also need to be in nice condition.  Original un-restored dash, interior, paint, drive-train, and overall really clean untouched.  They are super hard to find and command a premium.  Your car might be all there, but I don't think it would command a premium for being untouched.  Just my opinion.  Maybe I could have said "Un-restored original".  That might have been a better choice of words. 

  Also, for it not being original enough?  How is that? Im just looking for insight on how he justified that conclusion.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015 - 08:54:23 AM by C O D Y »
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Offline anlauto

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2015 - 08:58:38 AM »
...Brother from another Mother...I'm telling ya...I couldn't agree with Cody more !  :drunk:

Especially this part:
Quote
If you do get it restored by a shop I would suggest doing a lot of research on the shop.  Ask for previous customers phones numbers of people they have done work with in the past and call & talk to them.  Not just one, but several past customers.  Do a google search on them and post here and on other sites asking for customers they have done business with.  I can not tell you how many times I've heard nightmare stories of guys being burned during restorations.
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Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2015 - 09:06:23 AM »
 :iagree: I'm far from an expert here, but I've never found a good restoration shop that would give me anything but the most vague pricing (something like $20-40k instead of saying $30k, for instance) until they had the car and had taken it apart.


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Offline anlauto

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2015 - 09:49:10 AM »
I can quote my time pretty good after 30 years, but I out-source a lot of stuff like metal work and body and paint.
Body and paint we pretty much got down pat because I've used the same shop for 16 cars now.....

It's the metal work and rust repair that is the killer. Recently I started a restoration of a Cuda where the body looked good, but after stripping and blasting it turned out to be a mess.

It's impossible for me to see that up front in order to give a quote.
My metal man, Keith Sim won't even look at a car unless it's been blasted 100% and even then he won't know how much it will cost until he's done. So much time can go into fabrication and panel replacement that it's not funny....

So I wouldn't trust these shops that are giving exact quotes based on a customer's description and a dozen pictures, in my opinion it can't be accurate. Either they're going to loose money or they're going to charge you more....I'll let you decide what usually happens.
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Offline 1 Wild R/T

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2015 - 10:40:50 AM »

So I wouldn't trust these shops that are giving exact quotes based on a customer's description and a dozen pictures, in my opinion it can't be accurate. Either they're going to loose money or they're going to charge you more....I'll let you decide what usually happens.


And/or they are going to take shortcuts that are hidden under filler & paint.... Once they have your money in their bank good luck getting any hack work repaired..... Of course that is without opening your wallet a second time hopefully to the shop you wish you'd used the first time.... Instead of another shop that closely matches the first shop's business model..... (very common business model) 

BTW FWIW I wouldn't consider restoring your T/A, I'd drive the wheels off of it.... That is a sweet machine.....  :2cents:
JS27N0B 70 Challenger R/T Convertible  FJ5 Sublime, Show Poodle w/90,000 miles since resto
WS27L8G 68 Coronet R/T Convertible  PP1 Bright Red, Project
RM21H9E 69 Road Runner Coupe R4 Performance Red, Sold...
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Offline js29no

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2015 - 12:01:00 PM »
When A vehicle is restored to A high level they seldom get used. you are doing it the proper way for A good driver. the paint job last, now you know every thing works. then A good quality material's finish, and wala you now have A nice driver. 

Offline JH27N0B

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2015 - 01:02:07 PM »
I can speak from experience on ground up restoration costs of a 4 speed T/A, as I've been working on mine for a while.  Been there done that!
Take the numbers shops quote and then multiply that by 1.5 or possibly more like 2, and when the dust is all settled and the car is in your garage complete, that will be what you will find you have spent (if you can endure the agony of adding up all the bills and incidentals you've run up since you started your project).
Seriously, talk to anyone who has had a car done who paid a shop or shops to do most of the work, and I would doubt you can find anyone who is being straight with you that would tell you anything different than what I said.
The disassembly, most of the metal work, and the media blasting was done on my car previously by a shop that then left me hanging.  I moved it to a well known shop, one that gets a fair amount of press, has cars winning at major shows etc, and since my car was already stripped and metal work done, I figured the hour estimates he gave for various tasks would be pretty accurate.  I used the hourly rate he gave me plus 5% as he said he raised his rates around that amount every year, thus my rate would be higher when the car went in. I added up numbers and came up with low to mid 40's.  Added 10% for overages and unexpecteds, thought 50K would be more than enough. 
When the bills started coming in, I found he'd raised his rates 10%, and that was just the start.  Cars on the home stretch now, but out of the shop because he'd run my tab up over $70K and I had to stop the hemorrhaging!
Most stories I hear talking to lots of car guys make it sound like I got off easy, most restoration stories I hear are far worse.
Even rust free I doubt you can do a concours ground up on that car for under 100K. :2cents:

Offline anlauto

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2015 - 02:23:05 PM »
I've raised my prices 2-3 times in the last 10 years or so. I'm at $40/hr for the work I do plus 15% on parts and 10% on outsourced labour. The couple of people my prices affected I honoured my old price until their car was done unless we agreed it was a long term project. ( I have a V code Runner I've been working on for over five years).


I've heard so many horror stories about restoration shops that it makes my skin crawl....

I once had a customer approach me about restoring his Father's 1973 Challenger 318 Rallye car....
At the time I was too busy, but I told him it would be about $35K which was crazy... :screwy:
Being very impatient he drove the car, still on the road at this point to a restoration shop in St Catherines ON . They told him, $23K completely finished and it would only take 2-3 months....He pulled it after 8 months and $40K....All he got back was a painted stripped shell and all the old parts still not restored....He paid me another $22K to finish the car....Maybe the most expensive 318 Challenger out there :scared:
http://www.alangallantautomotiverestoration.com/PAST-RESTO-8.html

Sorry to the original poster for taking this way off topic :misbehaving:
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015 - 02:35:46 PM by anlauto »
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Offline HP_Cuda

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2015 - 03:02:10 PM »

Suddenly I don't feel so bad about what mine cost to build.

 :bigsmile:
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Offline rUNCHARGER

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2015 - 03:42:52 PM »
Reality sucks but it sucks a lot less getting it first rather than after you're into it too deep.

Sheldon

Offline JH27N0B

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2015 - 04:27:47 PM »
Restoration shops can be really charming when they are trying to get you to commit your car to them.
It's hard to get an accurate idea of the reality of dealing with them unless you talk to people who have dealt with them.  And tracking former customers down might take a little detective work.
And sadly, I've seen some shops that did good work and were straightforward suddenly start getting shady. Sometimes they start getting a good rep, they get lots of customers, expand to accommodate the work, and maybe hire a manager who is a snake or something like that.
And even though you want to believe the best of people, be skeptical.  Look for little red flags.  I think back to talking to my restorer early on.  Like one time we were talking about a '70 V code Superbee he'd recently finished, and it was for sale.  My restorer sort of rolled his eyes when I asked him why it was for sale, he said the owner was complaining about the financial stress of the build, that he had to raid his 401K to get money to finish it.  But, he told me, the owner had a vacation house up in Wisconsin so he "knew he had money".  He felt the guy was just crying crocodile tears about his financial duress.
I had told him I limp because I was badly hurt in an accident in the early 90s. Thinking back to what he said about his other customer, I have to wonder if now he rolls his eyes talking to people about loser me with my T/A who said he was out of money. Maybe he "knows I have a few million stashed away from my accident settlement".  I don't actually, never sued, never got a settlement, maybe should have.  But I have a couple nice cars and I bet he assumed I had deep pockets and could write blank checks because people who get badly hurt in accidents like mine usually get big settlements?
His talking about his other customer should have been a red flag to me, but I didn't pay attention I guess.
I see lots of cars for sale shortly after the restoration is finished, many of these cars you will see featured in glowing articles in the mags talking about the owners dream come true getting his beloved car restored.  So you wonder why its then for sale so quick, and I would say usually because the guy ended up spending far more than he had expected and couldn't afford to keep it after it was finished.
Maybe we are going off topic, but if the OP is thinking he can come out good financially doing a concours restoration on that T/A, he needs to know that doing that will be expensive and you won't get the money back if you sell the car.  If you got deep pockets, go for it, but otherwise, make that car a nice driver, or if you want a show queen, buy one that's already done.

Offline roadman5312

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Re: 1970 Challenger T/A 340 six pack 4spd value
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2015 - 04:48:10 PM »
           Maybe we need a pinned post on " tips, tricks and advice on restoration shops "   :dunno:

 :rebel: