Help on starting issue

[azievinger]

Hello, i need some help with an starting issue on my 72 challenger.
Some details. 318 engine, MSD ignition, carburetor en wire's. 3 months ago did an full rewiring with new wire's.
No major issue's since rewiring. Normal I pay somebody to do all the work on the car. But lately a little short on budget.
So I decided to do some things myself with the help of my father in law.
Last weekend we fixed an small fuel leakage at the fuel tank, the electric fan motor did not start, so we made it directly again to solve overheating. Fixed an small leakage at the radiator, but the starting issue which started some 4 weeks ago we could not fix.
Prior and after the rewiring when ignition switch was turn to start the car the voltage would drop to zero causing the msd box not to receive power in order the ignite(start) the engine.
We solved that by putting an separate switch which would give the msd box his power and by turning the ignition key. The car would start. This have been working like that since the engine rebuild beginning of 2014. unfortunate starting this way is not working anymore.

If I push the msd switch to on, I put the ignition key to on, no cranking of the engine, leaving the positions (ign. on, msd switch on) like that and use an screwdriver on the starter solenoid, the engine turns over and starts with no issue.
I tried changing the the starter solenoid with an new one, It did not solve my issue.
What could be the issue ?
My father in law thinks the switch in the steering column has gone bad and should be replaced ? He used to work on his cars(70's ford) himself so he knows his stuff. or he says put an extra start/stop button to start the engine. Would be an great anti-theft solution(3 switches). But actually would like to be able to start the car by just simply turning the key.
What do you guys think is my issue ?
Before I go out their and find an ignition switch, don't even want to think on how to install it.
Any help is appreciated.
Alvin Z.

[Bullitt-]

Could be the starter relay not getting a ground from the transmission interlock switch through the brown wire... Are you getting 12-volts to the yellow wire at the relay when the ignition is in the start position? 

[azievinger]

Will have to check, I'll post some picture's this evening to make sure what you mean on the yellow wire.

[70chall440]

So if I am reading this right, you are saying that when you rotate the ignition switch (with the key) the engine does not turn over (thus does not start), however it does if you jump the relay? Without seeing the car, wiring, etc my first impression is that one of several issues are present

1. you ignition switch is bad - not a super terrible thing to replace. You have to pull the steering wheel and remove the turn signal cam, then remove the switch (you need to get a FSM), it is pretty straight forward.

2. you have a wiring issue coming from your switch to your relay. There is one wire on the relay which is excited/activated by the switch that if removed, broken, etc will cause what you have here. if I recall right, when looking at the relay straight on (as if you were holding in your hand with the main lug on the bottom) it should be the right side slide on terminal. If this is not connected you should not have any activity at the switch but the lights will still come on. If this is connected, then trace it back and make sure it isn't broken somewhere.

You mention "rewiring"; not sure what this means in terms of what was used to accomplish this task; did you use a replacement factory harness, hot rod harness, homemade harness.....

[azievinger]

I attached 3 picture's my solenoid layout, hook up on the battery with solenoid on the back. and my famous switch. below the wiper/washer

Bullit, i made an picture of my solenoid. do you mean the yellow wire ? that should give an 12v on it ? when ignition is switch is on.

70chall440. answers on you're questions:
1. okay i'm hoping it is not, but like you explained it doesn't sound that bad. Need to check where I can get that ignition switch, are they expensive ? Will take 3 weeks before i can get it over to Aruba though.
2. see the picture's I uploaded, so right side would be the black wire on the right side of the solenoid. it is connected, so i should try to trace that and see if it broken somewhere ?
3. as for the rewiring, I used, "American Autowire Classic Update Series Wiring Harness Kits 510289"  from Summit it supposed to be an mopar specific install.

Let me know if i missed something. Will not have any opportunity to work on it until Saturday though.

thx for the imput up to know.
Alvin Z.

[70chall440]

this link says more than I can, exactly your problem

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=218656

[Bullitt-]

That's the yellow wire(picture left) that should get 12-volts in the "START" position & the brown wire (picture right) that gets it's ground through the safety interlock on the transmission or clutch switch on a manual tranny model..   

[azievinger]

thx for the info.

I have some more info in order to do some troubleshooting in the weekend. I'll post again as soon we figured it out of need additional help. thx again.

Alvin Z.

[azievinger]

Okay, of course with my new gained knowledge I could not wait until the weekend so I tried this afternoon I used the following info to try.

"I would first hold the key to start, then wiggle the shifter in/ out of park and neutral. If you get a start, or kick out of the starter, you've found the area of the problem. NSS could be bad, or linkage out of adjustment".

I changed my automatic to neutral and try to start the car. To my surprise it started with out any problem. Believe me we tried almost everything on last Saturday.
Turned if off and tried again, start without any problem. Changed form neutral to park and try to start, no problem for starting. So it looked like I found the problem. What I don't understand what does "NSS" stand for ? I read the story like 3 times, but cannot figure out what NSS stands for.
So any help on this is appreciated.

Alvin Z.

[73440]

neutral safety switch

http://www.rosevillemoparts.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=neutral+safety+switch&search_in_description=1&imageField.x=12&imageField.y=5

[Bullitt-]

Neutral Safety Switch ..It provides the ground to the starter relay through the brown wire when the car is in neutral/park & prevents the car from being started in gear (I refereed to it as the safety interlock)

[tman]

Might check trans linkage and see if its shifting in Park fully, which may cause it not to start in Park.  Might need a 2nd person to shift it and see if it fully engages in park.  Watch how the linkage moves from P to N, N to P.  When your helper puts in Park, see if you can move it just a bit more by hand.  If it does move a bit, then see if it starts.  Might need a small adjustment.

[azievinger]

Ever had that when you write something down, like I did yesterday evening about NSS, you cannot figure it out, and the next day, without reading the previous comments you get the abbreviation.

Well had that this morning and thx guys for stepping in on the NSS. Could not figure it out last evening.

So additional this weekend will have to crawl under the car with my father in law to check on the linkage.

thx all for the comments and advice

Alvin Z.

[azievinger]

All, the issue has been fixed wrt to starting. It turned out that the play in the linkage was the main cause. I made and small video of the play in the linkage. http://vid1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah225/Alvin_Zievinger/DSCN2606_zpsxtit22qt.mp4
When moving the linkage as seen in the video, the shifter is in park and the play cause the safety interlock as mention by you guys not to engage. By simply unscrew the bold and move the linkage in the right position the problem was solved. Never thought fixing an starting issue would be so simple.
And while I was under the car I saw and different issue which I needed to tackle as why the speedometer was not working. It will if the cable is hooked up to the transmission, which it was not, so I screwed it on the transmission, so that also solved.
Picture of the linkage set-up.

I want to thank you for helping me to solve this challenge for me.

I'm to post an new issue, hopefully you guys can help also with this new one

Alvin Z.