Upgraded handling compared to newer cars

[Archialfa]

Can anyone help me out with comparison of the upgraded suspension (Hotckis TVS, RMS, XV...) with new cars?

I am a huge Alfa Romeo fan (I've owned 4 Alfas until now) and the V8-bug bit me last year when I was visiting USA for the first time (I've rented a 2011 R/T Challenger). I've driven other V8s (Audi, Mercedes), but NONE could compare to the Hemi V8. The sound, the feeling, the whole experience was so overwhelming that I immediately started to look how to get my hands on a V8 Challenger over here in Central Europe.

Anyway, the stock suspension is really bad so I must upgrade it. I have read I don't know how many articles, forum posts, different views and opinions and what I would like to know is how it compares to European style handling.

I own a '96 Alfa Romeo Spider (front-wheel drive, 4-cyl, 2.0 liter, twin-spark, 150 HP) - it is maybe the best front-wheel-drive handling cars ever. I've upgraded the suspension with Bilstein B6 shocks and Eibach springs which made it even better in the corners so now I can keep up the pace in the corners with much more powerful cars. Of course, when we get to the straight part of the road they pull off, but in the corners my Spider kicks butts. I know it is impossible to get that kind of handling from a 45-year-old american muscle, but I would like to make it as good as possible.

Has anyone driven a let's say BMW 3-series or Audi A4/A6 and can compare it to an E-body with full Hotchkis/RMS/XV suspension upgrades? Body roll, cornering, etc?

From what I've read on this forum and online articles, I would go with RMS Alterktion/Street Lynx setup, but the price is much higher than Hotchkis TVS. Is it worth it? I won't go racing with the Challenger - I want to turn it into a corner-carving GT.

[soundcontrol]

Check out the Hotchkiss videos on Youtube, (comparing the Hotchkiss E-max Challenger to a new one) that what inspired me with my build, even though I went for the Firmfeel stuff in the end. I also looked at the AlterK stuff, but decided to go oldschool. I'm still in the process, will take me another year or two, since I recently changed my mind and got a 6.1 Hemi instead of the 340. It's gonna be very interesting to get it on the road again.


A warning, this site and all the cool projects here will get you addicted!
I started out wanting to change the headers and fix some leaks, look at me now, a Gen 3 Hemi on the floor, new suspension and brakes, just bought a rotisserie and the car is in a million pieces....   

[Archialfa]

Hehe I know what you mean! I'm addicted already.



I saw I guess most of the videos online, especially Hotchkis Emax, XV, RMS... It all sounds nice, but I still have no clue if Hotchkis would do it for me or if RMS is an overkill considering that I won't be doing autocrossing or trackdays. Roads here are narrow and curvy so I need it to handle properly.

Just as a comparison: driving a new Challenger in California didn't feel like I was driving a large car. When I got back home just out of curiosity I went online to check the size of the Challenger - its 5 meters length would feel huge over here! Over there I felt like I was driving a nice mid-size coupe. I don't know how it would feel to drive it over here...


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[crash340]

Ken, that is hilarious, so very true though about how one starts with just this or that but ends up with a visit to CC Anonymous for therapy.

Archialfa, I have a 73 Cuda which I absolutely love driving, Ive only moderately upgraded the suspension, fitted poly bushes, offset UCA bushes, QA1 shocks, FR steering, I have a few more changes to make but Im keeping to the original design style, not coil over or 4 link etc (I'd love to go that way though). My daily drive car is a 2013 C Class MB, out on the interstate I prefer my Cuda it soaks up the bumps we have in our interstates better than the Benz and doesn't toss you around as much, around town I can slam the Cuda into corners just as hard as the Benz, the only difference is, its a little quieter in the Benz and the Benz seats support you laterally far better than the 70's seats, I still have the large diameter 'truck' steering wheel on the Cuda, going to a smaller one would also make a big difference.
So short answer is yes I believe you can with some changes and good wheel tire selection but have the rawness of a 70's muscle car as far as noises and sounds

[70chall440]

Be cautious of Greg's comments, he is Australian after all 

He is correct however in this instance and has gone through the process of taking a relatively stock car and making it drive and handle well. While I have 2 70's era Ebodies, I don't drive them (one is still apart and the other one sits in my shop) but I have a lot of experience with them as well as the new Challenger (have a 10 Challenger RT). A lot of it is prospective and even more of it is what you like, expect and will accept. Unlike a new car; a vintage mopar is not a "buy it and forget it" endeavor; you will need to work on it and develop it into something you want.

[Archialfa]

Thanks for the comments guys. 

I never thought it will be a "buy it and forget it" thing. If I had 100k euros to spend on upgrades then I think I might be on that road, but in the end I think it is better and more satisfying to do baby steps and in a few years have the car of my dreams.

My questions regarding suspension boils down to decision whether to spend more money and go for the RMS kit or get the Hotchkis TVS. It's not that I need to make that decision NOW because I still didn't get the car (it will be delivered in January). First upgrade will be new wheels (most probably YearOne 17" Magnum), then disc brakes and only then I will go for the suspension. I hope I will get it cleared out with help from members of this forum to make the final decision.

So, has anyone driven E-bodies with these two systems? I know all the other stuff makes for a hard comparison (engine, brakes etc).

At first I dismissed Hotchkis TVS because when I realized it has leaf springs in the back I considered it to be completely outdated. And then I saw the E-max on YouTube videos which got me thinking if RMS is worth the $$$ difference...

What I don't like about new German cars is the way they dampen the driving feeling. My Alfas have really good feedback on the steering wheel and I am used to that. Whenever I drive an Audi or Mercedes I feel like I am driving a floating cushion. Comfy, silent, nice for long drives, but on the other hand boring as hell.

Take a look at the photos - this is the road I take when going for a Sunday drive... 

[70chall440]

can't say I have driven both; however while I was at the nationals I talked to numerous guys with both. That said, I can tell you that the original components can be made work just as well with a lot less fabrication. I run Firm Feel components on both of my Ebodies and have talked to a lot of other owners running the same; good torsion bars, sway bars, good shocks, and new bushings as well as a good alignment will make them handle quite well. All that said and more to your question; I believe the RMS system to be better engineered and works marginally better than the Hotchkiss system.

[1 Wild R/T]

FWIW the hairpin in your bottom photo is tight enough that you will discory the glaring flaw in an RMS Alterkation System... Two things happen, the Ackerman angle is completely wrong so when you turn tight the wheels don't properly follow the different turn radius from the inner & outer tire.... So the steering binds & doesn't return to center which can be irritating but also the tires bind trying to navigate those different circles so the less loaded tire is forced to slip, at low speed you can actually feel the tire step over to correct its path, at higher speed it will just slide but it does cause a feeling of the car binding, slowing...   I've driven two cars with Alterkations, they both did this... Not a fan...

FWIW I've only ridden in one car with Hotchkis' parts, I took a ride in the Emax Challenger, it didn't do anything odd that I could notice from the passenger seat and it went around the pylons pretty damn quick...

[70chall440]

Would love to hit that road in the Viper...

[GoodysGotaCuda]

FWIW the hairpin in your bottom photo is tight enough that you will discory the glaring flaw in an RMS Alterkation System... Two things happen, the Ackerman angle is completely wrong so when you turn tight the wheels don't properly follow the different turn radius from the inner & outer tire.... So the steering binds & doesn't return to center which can be irritating but also the tires bind trying to navigate those different circles so the less loaded tire is forced to slip, at low speed you can actually feel the tire step over to correct its path, at higher speed it will just slide but it does cause a feeling of the car binding, slowing...   I've driven two cars with Alterkations, they both did this... Not a fan...

FWIW I've only ridden in one car with Hotchkis' parts, I took a ride in the Emax Challenger, it didn't do anything odd that I could notice from the passenger seat and it went around the pylons pretty damn quick...

Have any more info on the ackermann problem? Stock ackermann vs RMS?

[1 Wild R/T]

Have any more info on the ackermann problem? Stock ackermann vs RMS?

I've never put gauges on one, just going off knowing how Ackerman works & what I've experienced when driving the cars... The bind/step over effect is very pronounced at a tighter turn radius... 

Granted stock isn't perfect but it's worlds ahead of the RMS effort... Honestly I was shocked at how bad it is....   Because they missed that by such a big margin I'd love to put one an a rack, pull the coil overs & check for measurable bump steer, sweep the camber... Just see what the thing really does..

On the road the feedback & general feel is pretty good, naturally rack & pinion tends to do that, but with minimal changes the OE stuff feels good too... I've never pushed it hard enough to know it works in that area, not my car, not my thing to push someone else's car...

Personally I'm not trying to go that fast in old cars anymore, I have a R/T vert, I drive it allot & at a decent clip but not stupid fast... I've got bigger sway bars, Bilstiens, bigger brakes... I go through curves fast enough to surprise the hell out of my buddy in his old 930 Porshe... Not fast enough that it cause his any problem keeping up but a lot faster than he expected...

If I wanted to go stupid fast these days I'd invest in the Hotchkis TVS stuff...

[marknitek]

Very interesting... I'am from europe too (switzerland), and was asking myself the same questions about handling! My previous car was a focus rs which was a hell of a car around corners!
Btw i will get my challenger in january too, :-D
I was on the hotchkis route but i like the firm feel stuff too. Would love to hear about those too. It seems the firm feel stuff is a bit cheaper?
Anyway very good thread.

[Archialfa]

Very interesting... I'am from europe too (switzerland), and was asking myself the same questions about handling! My previous car was a focus rs which was a hell of a car around corners!
Btw i will get my challenger in january too, :-D
I was on the hotchkis route but i like the firm feel stuff too. Would love to hear about those too. It seems the firm feel stuff is a bit cheaper?
Anyway very good thread.

Marknitek, where is your Challenger coming from?

As for the suspension, maybe we Europeans can join forces and make a larger order with one of the companies and get a nice discount. 

[marknitek]

California, but the car is already here and is getting prepared for authorization (strict rules here they check classic cars very well) in this process many things get done: body work, new paint, interior, tach, new exhaust,...

Yeah discount would be great ;-)
Btw: i think about magnum wheels too, but i would prefer 18" and polished like the ones from circle racing

[70chall440]

I do have experience with Firm Feel as they are located about 2 hours south of me. They are great people, 100% Mopar dedicated and know what they are doing. If you tell them what you have or will have and what you want the car to do, they can tell you what you need. The best thing about FF stuff is that it all bolts in as stock stuff since it is either rebuilt stock parts or made to stock specs (in terms of mounting). I recently put a stage 3 box, fast ratio pitman and idler arms on my 70 Challenger and it is noticeably (like a lot) better. I haven't driven the car hard or much so I cannot talk about handling; I do have the stock RT front sway bar and an aftermarket rear (a bit thin IMO). I did install Bilsteins which were a great improvement over the KYB I had on it.