Author Topic: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars  (Read 10950 times)

Offline BIGSHCLUNK

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2015 - 11:43:27 AM »
I've done several performance upgrades which has made a 1000% difference in how NIKKI handles. But kept it stock appearing.  But may I suggest first off... connect the subframes... Either buy the ready made or if your ambitious (cheap like BIGS) make your own. Then nice shocks ( I run Bilstein) HEAVY torsion bars. BIG sway bar level 3 steering box,. I could go on and on, but you get the idea.
70 Chally R/T Convertible- Yes she's really got a HEMI, no she's not a Charger!
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                                              [o o o o]
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Offline jordan

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2015 - 11:52:06 AM »
I did quite a bit of work to my Cuda to get it to handle.  I have a XV level 1 system including large torsion bars, adco sway bars, afco adjustable shocks, frame bracing,and leaf springs.  I have added Hotchkis upper control arms and steering endlinks.  The links supposedly take out the bump steer.  Poly bushing everywhere.  I have a firm feel stage 2 or 3 steering box (in the car when I bought it), rebuilt steering column, and sector shaft support bearing.  I braced my stock lower control arms.  I have XV level 1 brakes (PBR 12.5 in front and rear) with a hydroboost system.  18" wheels. 295 rear and 255 fronts.   And a smaller diameter Tuff steering wheel.  Not much is stock anymore. 
     The car rides excellent!  Very stiff chassis, with great bump absorbtion.  Corners reasonably flat. Brakes are awesome.  The only thing I think that would make it more modern feeling is better steering feel and feedback.  Even with the new steering box and adjustable geometries, there is still too much play in the steering for easy quick left to right transistions.  It is just not super precision tight like a BMW.  But not much is.  I have owned a Porsche 928s4, BMW 325is moderatly modified, and a Cadillac XLR with a rear sway bar for comparison.  My cuda is similar in handling, but just not quite the same solid, precise feel of the rack and pinion cars.  The car feels big too.  I have to remind myself while I am driving my Cuda that it is a 45 year old car, although modified, it is still not a new car.  Asking my old car to be a new car is asking alot. It is hard to have the one perfect car for all situations.   
     I am really curious on how an XV level 2 suspension system would feel.  If I had more money and skill, I would have attempted to build that up.  I did hear there is some compromises to be made while street driving because it is more of a race car set up.   
"Don't brake until you see God!"

Offline HP2

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2015 - 06:45:00 PM »
There are only four way to suspend a car; coil, leaf, torsion and air. All react to road handling in similar manners. What differentiates a good handling car from  others is the balance of those springs rates and geometry of the system.

In stock form, classic Mopars have reasonably good geometry that was way ahead of its time for its era. They do have some bump steer issues and a definite lack of caster, but there are parts out there to address that. What high end systems like AlterK and XVL2 do is seek to optimize the geometry while minimize the interference, weight, and bump steer that comes with  the stock system while allowing faster and easier changes and increased adjustability in components and rates.

Firm Feel and Hotchkis have similarly addressed balance and rates in manners to retain very stock appearing systems. They also offer components that improve optimization while minimizing bad traits. However, because they are stock based, they are not as quickly changed out as the coil over types of systems, but they still retain a fair amount of adjustability.

FF, Hotchkis, and XV1 all produce good kits. They will make a car capable of outperforming 90% of the drivers out there and look stock doing it. They can accomplish this with a reasonable budget because they retain some key factory pieces and only update what is necessary.  By contrast, AlterK, HemiDenny, XV2 and other conversion systems produce similar results with much less weight and a much higher price tag because they replace nearly every piece of the system within the car. They also look new and will get you a lot of compliments when others look under the car at them. Because they are made using later model parts, replacement items are reasonably easy and reasonably priced to get.

So do you want to be the guy who looks like he spent a bundle on his car and can hopefully back up the look with capability, or do you want to be the sleeper who smokes exotics while looking original?

Offline djw383

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2015 - 07:30:38 PM »
Firm Feel guys are nice, but I had to work their oem replacement rear sway bar brackets that connect to the frame. They were too wide and I had to press them more. Also the bolt holes did not match up to the frame so one set of holes I made slotted to look like they were suppose to be like that. Still worth the work to have an oem rear sway bar.

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Offline cudazappa

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2015 - 08:08:54 PM »
Have the Hotchkis TVS and am 1000% satisfied.  My Challenger sees regular autocross activity and with my amateur driving ability I do respectable.  I have had the Firm Feel components on my last car (79 Cordoba 300) and transformed that car.  The Hotchkis stuff is a step beyond Firm Feel. 
FF can get you an awesome setup with OEM reliability and maintenance.  And it will handle like a modem sedan.  Hotchkis uses heim joints so you need to inspect them every so often.  But the trade off is it is even better handling without cutting up the car.
In both setups you need to run the factory style steering box which will always have some on center dead feel because it isn't a rack.  But I haven't felt that it was ever holding me back.


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1971 Challenger - AutoX project
2015 Dart GT - Daily Driver

Offline WildJones

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2015 - 09:54:16 PM »
Have the Hotchkis TVS and am 1000% satisfied.  My Challenger sees regular autocross activity and with my amateur driving ability I do respectable.  I have had the Firm Feel components on my last car (79 Cordoba 300) and transformed that car.  The Hotchkis stuff is a step beyond Firm Feel. 
FF can get you an awesome setup with OEM reliability and maintenance.  And it will handle like a modem sedan.  Hotchkis uses heim joints so you need to inspect them every so often.  But the trade off is it is even better handling without cutting up the car.
In both setups you need to run the factory style steering box which will always have some on center dead feel because it isn't a rack.  But I haven't felt that it was ever holding me back.


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You can always look into the Borgeson steering box to get rid of some of the dead center feel. My box is installed in the car, but the car isn't back together and running yet. It sure feels more precise moving the steering wheel without the car running, but I don't think this is really a valid comparison. Others who have installed the box say it is quite a step up from the stock box, but isn't quite rack and pinion precise.
Mike
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1970 Cuda

Offline 70chall440

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2015 - 10:29:14 PM »
I looked seriously at the Borgenson box when I was upgrading my Challenger, but decided to go with FF due to cost and some things I read online. Not saying anything bad about it, it was just cheaper and easier to go with FF for me.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Archialfa

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2015 - 07:57:15 AM »
Btw: i think about magnum wheels too, but i would prefer 18" and polished like the ones from circle racing

Niiiiiice wheels! I had no idea there are Magnum wheels available in sizes larger than 17".

The price is also "nice" I must say.  :pullinghair:
1970 Challenger 440 Magnum

Build thread: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=113902

Offline cudazappa

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2015 - 10:45:37 AM »
The boregeson box is still a remanufactured worm gear box.  The design has inherent dead on center feel.  Also, for watching what everyone else on the internet documenting installs, I don't want to buy one and have to build my own jig to fix it.  FF was cheaper with me sending a core from CT to WA, getting the stage 3, and long pitman and idler, and it BOLTED in.  No special hoses or steering column mods.


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1971 Challenger - AutoX project
2015 Dart GT - Daily Driver

Offline 70chall440

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2015 - 10:49:54 AM »
 :iagree:
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline brads70

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2015 - 02:04:16 PM »
The boregeson box is still a remanufactured worm gear box.  The design has inherent dead on center feel.  Also, for watching what everyone else on the internet documenting installs, I don't want to buy one and have to build my own jig to fix it.  FF was cheaper with me sending a core from CT to WA, getting the stage 3, and long pitman and idler, and it BOLTED in.  No special hoses or steering column mods.


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 :iagree:   to many known issues, mounts not welded on in the correct spot, pitman arm splines not cut deep enough on the large sector box, etc..... Not worth the weight reduction to me.
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Mopar Mitch

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2015 - 02:17:23 PM »
Archialfa -- You'll also want to get a better driver's seat to hold you inplace... the old factory seats in our e-bodies are terrible for lateral support.   The factory steering geometry was never good, so, a major change you'll want to do is change the UCAs so to get POSITIVE CASTEWR (factory barely allows pos caster), and a touch of negative camber.   FF, Hotchkis, others are all pretty good to resolve this factory problem for better handling alignment settings.  An alternative to changing the UCAs is to install the MOOG Problem Solver UCA bushings.. in reverse... so it'll get you some pos caster.... but, if you've gone that far by removing the UCAs, spend the extra $$ and change the UCAs as well.    Have FF or SteernGear rebuild and tighten your ps box, add the longer pitman and idler arms, install bigger f/r sway bars, better shocks, install stiffer TBs and leafs... you'll be amazed... and eventually get some wider rims and wider tires, and improve your brakes.  AND... consider adding subframe connectors.

Go For It!   MOPOWER to ya!
Autocross/road racers go in deeper... and come out harder!

See  MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, AUGUST 2006 ISSUE for featured article and details on my autocross T/A.

Offline WildJones

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2015 - 03:14:03 PM »
The boregeson box is still a remanufactured worm gear box.  The design has inherent dead on center feel.  Also, for watching what everyone else on the internet documenting installs, I don't want to buy one and have to build my own jig to fix it.  FF was cheaper with me sending a core from CT to WA, getting the stage 3, and long pitman and idler, and it BOLTED in.  No special hoses or steering column mods.


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Not arguing one way or the other, just providing information. Yes, you would need different hoses, but you do not need to cut the steering column. You can get an adapter made by Bergman that allows you to use your stock, unmolested column. Also, depending on engine/header choice, you may run into clearance issues with the stock steering box and running the short ratio pitman and idler arms.

I have the "version 2" of the box and it lined up straight for me. As I mentioned prior though, the car is not running and I just installed it so that I could roll the car around. I can say that the arm bolted on to the box just fine, just like my stock box. It would seem that the issue on Version 1 has been fixed with version 2.

Here's to hoping that the on center feel is better than my stock box was :).
Mike
95682
1970 Cuda

Offline EB3-GranCoupe

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2015 - 07:18:09 PM »
This is good stuff....
 :popcorn:

Offline marknitek

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Re: Upgraded handling compared to newer cars
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2015 - 01:34:56 AM »
A question about the long quick ratio pitman/idler: I've read in other topics that they don't work with after market headers, aside from a few exceptions (TTI?). I don't know yet which headers my car comes with, so the chances are high they are not compatible i guess? Is it possible to make it fit or is it best to change headers if you want to have the quick ratio? Is it worth it?  :clueless: