Author Topic: tubular upper control are question?  (Read 3506 times)

Offline JoeGrapes

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tubular upper control are question?
« on: December 06, 2015 - 01:04:42 PM »
I'm looking at all these after market tubular UCAs as part of my suspension upgrade this spring. Aside from the Hotchkis UCAs that change the mounting position the rest from FF, QA1, Magnum Force and PST pretty much seem to be the same. I think the UCAs from Hotchkis might be a little over kill for my strictly street driving. Now my question, will Moog offset bushings accomplish the same thing as the rest of the UCAs or do they offer something more that offset bushings don't? Aside from any weight difference and assuming my stock UCAs are in good shape. 




Offline crash340

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2015 - 02:54:31 PM »
For a streeter I believe the offsett UCA bushes are all you need, The aftermarket UCA's look cool for the street but not sure they offer leaps and bounds of improvement to warrant costs etc.
Greg

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Brisbane, Australia

Offline Katfish

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2015 - 03:19:55 PM »
Agree, the offset bushings are good enough.

Offline brads70

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2015 - 04:45:21 PM »
Agree, the offset bushings are good enough.

 :iagree:  For just cruising around this is all I would do. If your stock arms are worn out/ rusted out/bent  then at that point I might consider an upgrade. 
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline crash340

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2015 - 04:49:31 PM »
 :iagree:
Greg

73 Cuda
Brisbane, Australia

Offline JoeGrapes

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2015 - 05:43:05 PM »
Yeah, I don't mind spending the money if I'm going to get something more than the offset bushings offer but if not then maybe I'll use the money for upgrading some other parts. 

Offline JoeGrapes

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2015 - 06:09:21 PM »

 The aftermarket UCA's look cool for the street but not sure they offer leaps and bounds of improvement to warrant costs etc.
[/quote]

Then again there is value to the cool factor  8)

Offline brads70

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2015 - 06:16:25 PM »
I went with Hotchkiss simply because of the adjustable ends. I use a custom combo/creation with C-Body spindles etc... so I needed the adjustability. I also was sold on the extra gusset around the ball joint which looks stronger to me. 
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Katfish

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2015 - 06:29:34 PM »
You can't see the UCAs unless the wheel is off.........

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2015 - 07:21:00 PM »
There is a reason upper controls arms are 1 piece of stamped steel  , no welded areas to break , the welds are usually fine but beside the weld can be weakened . So I would use factory arms with offset bushings for street

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Offline HP2

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2015 - 11:28:38 AM »
I'm a big fan of the Moog offset bushings and they do help and can, in most cases, do exactly what you need. However, on some cars, they simply can't do enough and you will need aftermarket arms to get the broader range of adjustment to get where you want.

Some, like FF, QA1, MF build additional caster into the geometry of the arm so you don't need as much bushing change. The Hotchkis units take it a step further by reducing anti-dive as well to create a more linear dynamic change compared to a stock mount unit that creates a non-linear change.

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2015 - 01:56:36 PM »
The hotchkis UCAs are really nice, and the anti-dive change is noticeable. But on a street car the heim joints are a pain in the butt. The first set of heims I had in my hotchkis UCA's only lasted 7k miles. Hotchkis replaced them for me at no charge, which was awesome, and included a set of boots for them too. But unfortunately I really don't see getting a whole lot more miles out of them, even with the boots. Heims just aren't a good solution on the street, and the UCA location is kind of like the trifecta for destroying them. The heims at the UCA's need a high amount of articulation, they're in constant motion while under a decent amount of load, and are in a spot where they are exposed to a lot of dirt and contamination. And the fixed front mount, while great for geometry, makes doing the alignment on the car a lot more tedious.

The Hotchkis arms are great from a design and geometry standpoint, and Hotchkis is a great company to deal with, but I'm not running heims on the UCA's on any more of my cars. For an adjustable strut rod or steering link it's a different story, but at the UCA location they just don't make sense on a street car. For a weekend driver or a race car I can see it, but not on anything that sees a lot of street miles. I use tubular UCA's with bushed ends on my other cars now.

The offset bushings should be enough to get a decent alignment on most cars. The tubular UCA's pretty much all have more caster built in, so for a power steering car they may be better as you can get even more positive caster, which is a great thing. On a manual steering car you probably don't want to go much more than +3 or +4 anyway. But in either case the offset bushings should be enough to get decent alignment numbers.

I wouldn't worry about the welds on the tubular UCA's as long as they're from a reputable manufacturer. The welds, when properly performed, should be just as strong as the surrounding material.

The only other advantage on a tubular UCA compared to the stock UCA's is rim clearance, but I don't think it's an issue on E-body's because of the backspace needed (or not needed, actually). On my Duster I needed to use a tubular UCA because my 18x9" rims would actually interfere with the stock UCA at full lock and suspension droop. Most of the tubular UCA's out there have a narrower profile, which adds clearance. But A-bodies need a lot more positive offset to run wide rims/tires up front. E-bodies basically use a zero offset rim, even going up to a 9" wide rim, so the clearance on the stock UCA isn't really an issue. It did come up when I had a "U" shaped tubular UCA, but most companies have gone away from that design for that reason, and most of the UCA's out there now are "V" shaped.

Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2015 - 02:15:27 PM »
If you put Moog offset bushings on a Hotchkis arm...would you go back in time?


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Offline brads70

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2015 - 03:44:12 PM »
I'm planning on building a jig for my new K-Frame project and just bought a pair of these from Peter.
http://bergmanautocraft.com/proddetail.php?prod=5-0090

Not sure how "durable/streetable" these will be but I will use them to mock up parts on my jig.

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=101599.msg1002138#msg1002138
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline JoeGrapes

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Re: tubular upper control are question?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2015 - 04:49:26 PM »
Thanks for the valuable input everyone. I pretty much ruled out the Hotchkis UCAs for my application. I'm sure the offset bushings will be fine in my case but I haven't ruled out the tubular control arms yet. I have all winter to think about going with only what will do the job or going with something a little more excessive. Hmmm, come to think about it, isn't going excessive the who point of having these cars? :grinno: