question about compression for the street

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Offline djais1801

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question about compression for the street
« on: December 11, 2015 - 11:40:44 AM »
First off, I am not experienced with engines/engine building so forgive me...that being said, I am interested in a car with 12:1 compression, I understand that is too radical for the street/ fuel.

what would need to be done to de-tune the engine for street/octane purposes? below is the engine details:
340ci V8 Engine
X - Heads
TRW Pistons w/ 12.1 Compression
590 Purple Camshaft
Eagle Rods
Eagle Crank
Holley 4bbl Carb
Edelbrock Single Plane Intake
904 Automatic Transmission
10 inch Turbo Action Converter




Offline moper

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2015 - 12:33:12 PM »
The real question is was the compression measured and computed, or are the pistons "12:1 pistons"? It's not easy to reach a true 12:1 with the X heads and common older-type pistons. Not without a bit of blueprinting. Also - those pistons would more than likely have to be domed - which means aftermarket closed chamber heads would not work either. Sounds like a fun car but I'd haggle a bit due to the engine questions. not that it's "bad". But IMO it's not streetable with 12:1 static.

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2015 - 12:55:01 PM »
The 590 is a looong duration cam so it will bleed off a lot of cyl pressure so this is a big help , the engine simply will not make power under 3500 - 4000 RPM either again this is a big help . My Duster with the 440 was over 11.1 & was built with quench & swirl & worked very well on 93 octane as long as I followed the rules , I could not get into the throttle under 3000 rpm o it was instant detonation ,you had to shift down before opening the throttle to get into the 3500 rpm range ,  it was drivable below 3000 but only at light throttle & you cannot compromise on fuel used .
 X heads will not have quench but using a alum head with a closed chamber would go a long way towards making it drivable on pump fuel as you will have effectively 1 point less compression / heat using alum heads assuming they clear the piston domes  often you can mill off the dome but this will require complete disassembly . Using a thicker head gasket will be detrimental as you lose quench & are more likely to have detonation problems .

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Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2015 - 01:01:32 PM »
Don't want to hijack the thread, but I'm very curious about the last statement, since I think I know just enough about motors to be dangerous to myself and others. How does a thicker head gasket lead to potential detonation?


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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2015 - 01:18:54 PM »
Quench is the key , when the piston is close to the head as in .040-.060 it creates a shock wave/ turbulence  towards the spark plug this will prevent detonation , once you have more clearance ,, above .080 , there is less turbulence so the air fuel is prone to self ign opposite the plug which is detonation so quench is very critical in prevention so simply lowering the compression with a thicker gasket can actually be worse

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Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2015 - 01:35:40 PM »
So, basically, quench creates a fluctuation in the A/F mixture that prevents a detonation impulse from propagating, whereas the same impulse will propagate more easily through a heterogeneous mixture?


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Offline HP_Cuda

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2015 - 01:41:43 PM »

The OP of this thread really needs to start with what they are trying to achieve.

Where do you want the powerband to start and go to? What stall are you planning on running?

Are you trying to make a street/strip car or flat out strip car only?
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Offline Oldschool

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2015 - 01:45:41 PM »
So, basically, quench creates a fluctuation in the A/F mixture that prevents a detonation impulse from propagating, whereas the same impulse will propagate more easily through a heterogeneous mixture?

Awesome!   Did you play "The Professor" on Gilligan's Island??      :roflsmiley:   :roflsmiley: 

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Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2015 - 02:00:09 PM »
No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night  :thinkerg:


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Offline djais1801

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2015 - 02:18:45 PM »
let me clarify...I would like to have a street thumper that I can take to car shows/cruise nights...so I would like some low end torque.
The OP of this thread really needs to start with what they are trying to achieve.

Where do you want the powerband to start and go to? What stall are you planning on running?

Are you trying to make a street/strip car or flat out strip car only?

Offline 1 Wild R/T

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2015 - 04:16:33 PM »
So, basically, quench creates a fluctuation in the A/F mixture that prevents a detonation impulse from propagating, whereas the same impulse will propagate more easily through a heterogeneous mixture?

Straying from the original point of this thread & getting into the quench a little more....  I always thought this article did a good job of explaining it...  I highlighted the point where it's truly made easy to grasp....  But then again I doubt "Professor" needs that...

What is the most, exact precisely defined occurrence in all piston engines? It isn’t ignition timing, combustion, crank indexing, or valve events. It is Top Dead Center. You can’t build an engine with an error at Top Dead Center because TDC is what everything else is measured from. Spark scatter, crank flex and cam timing can move, but TDC is when the piston is closest to the cylinder head in any one cylinder. The combustion process gets serious at Top Dead Center and about 12 degrees after TDC, most engines want to have maximum cylinder pressure. If maximum cylinder pressure occurs 10 degrees earlier or later, power goes away. Normal ignition timing is adjusted to achieve max cylinder pressure at 12 degrees after TDC. If your timing was set at 36 degrees before TDC that is a 48 degree head start on our 12 degree ATDC target. A lot of things can happen in 48 degrees and since different cylinders burn at different rates and don’t even burn at the same rate cycle to cycle, each cylinder would likely benefit from custom timing for each cylinder and each cycle. Special tailored timing is possible but there is an easier way—“Magnificent Quench”. Take a coffee can ½ full of gasoline burning with slow flicking flame. Strike the can with a baseball bat and you have what I would call a “fast burn”, much like what we want in the combustion chamber. The fast burn idea helps our performance engine by shortening the overall burn time and the amount of spark lead (negative torque) dialed in with the distributor. If you go from 36 degrees total to 32 degrees total and power increases, you either shortened the burn time or just had too much timing dialed-in in the first place. If you have really shortened the burn time, you won’t need so much burning going on before Top Dead Center. Now you can retard timing and increase HP. Did you ever have an engine that didn’t seem to care what timing it had? This is not the usual case with a fast burn combustion but an old style engine with big differences in optimum timing cylinder to cylinder will need 40 degrees of timing on some and others only need 26 degrees. If you set the distributor at 34 degrees, it is likely that 4 cylinders will want more timing and 4 cylinders will want less ( V-8). Moving the timing just changes, which cylinders are doing most of the work. Go too far and some cylinders may take a vacation. Now what does quench really do? First, it kicks the burning flame front across and around the cylinder at exactly TDC in all cylinders. Even with spark scatter, the big fire happens as the tight quench blasts the 32 degree old flame around the chamber. Just as with the coffee can, big flame or small flame, hit it with a baseball bat and they are all big instantly. The need for custom cylinder-to-cylinder timing gets minimized with a good quench. The more air activity in a cylinder you have the less ignition timing you are likely to need. When you add extra head gaskets to lower compression you usually lose enough quench that it is like striking the burning coffee can with a pencil. No fire ball here and that .070-.090 quench distance acts like a shock absorber for flame travel by slowing down any naturally occurring chamber activity. A slow burn means you need more timing and you will have more burn variation cycle-to-cycle and cylinder-to-cylinder, result more ping. Our step and step dish pistons are designed not only to maximize quench but to allow the flame to travel to the opposite side of the cylinder at TDC. The further the flame is driven, the faster the burn rate and the less timing is required. The step design also reduces the piston surface area and helps the piston top stay below 600 degree f (necessary to keep out of detonation). All of our forged pistons that are lower compression than a flat-top are step or step dish design. A nice thing about the step design is that it allows us to make a lighter piston. Our hypereutectic AMC, Buick, Chrysler, Ford, Oldsmobile and Pontiac all offer step designs. We cannot design a 302 Chevy step dish piston at 12:1 compression ratio but a lot of engines can use it to generate good pump gas compression ratio. Supercharging with a quench has always been difficult. A step dish is generally friendly to supercharging because you can have increased dish volume while maintaining a quench and cool top land temperatures. You may want to read our new design article for more information. ".

By John Erb
Chief Engineer
KB Performance Pistons
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Offline jhaag

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2015 - 09:21:32 PM »
Simple answer to the OP question. This motor is wrong for your intended use. You want torque, this is a higher rpm, low torque combo. You would need different pistons, (or have yours milled), rebalance the assembly, different cam, different intake. You would be wise to sell this combo and build one to suit your intended use. Torque is king.   :2cents:
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Offline djais1801

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2015 - 08:33:58 AM »
Thanks jhaag
Simple answer to the OP question. This motor is wrong for your intended use. You want torque, this is a higher rpm, low torque combo. You would need different pistons, (or have yours milled), rebalance the assembly, different cam, different intake. You would be wise to sell this combo and build one to suit your intended use. Torque is king.   :2cents:

Offline Denison636

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2015 - 02:23:24 PM »
Just run E-85 and call it done
Its just a little 340 with a miss

Offline HP_Cuda

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Re: question about compression for the street
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2015 - 01:32:29 PM »

 :iagree: and that's why I asked!


Simple answer to the OP question. This motor is wrong for your intended use. You want torque, this is a higher rpm, low torque combo. You would need different pistons, (or have yours milled), rebalance the assembly, different cam, different intake. You would be wise to sell this combo and build one to suit your intended use. Torque is king.   :2cents:
1970 Cuda Clone 440 4 speed - sublime green
1970 Cuda 383 4 speed - yellow - SOLD