Author Topic: Help and suggestions on metal replacement  (Read 3700 times)

Offline AARTA340

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Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« on: December 30, 2015 - 05:02:44 AM »
Getting ready to start some major panel replacement on my 71 Gran Coupe. Finally finding some time to get the show on the road and looking for any and all suggestions before I get too far into it. I will be replacing the trunk floor, floor extensions, trunk gutters, dutch-man panel and at least one quarter panel if not both. Wheel wells look good, but the right side will need a small patch.

The rear tail panel is also missing the Gran Coupe Crest from the factory line. I did not even notice it was not there until just recently. There are no holes surrounding the lock where it is supposed to go. At first I thought just possibly the light panel may have been replaced, but after giving it a close look and checking the attaching panels, it has never been replaced, so chalk up another one the line guys missed.  :clueless:

With all this said, what have you guys done for measuring the existing parts for a near perfect fit with the new metal. I want to get all your thoughts BEFORE I start cutting off rusty gold, LOL. Below is a picture or two of the rear as it sits. I did remove one drop off and a partial right quarter, as it was mangled with so much distortion, no viable points for measuring existed.

I will most likely attempt most of the work while it is sitting on the table I tossed together over the Christmas weekend. It was sitting on a rotisserie and as we all know, that would not work.

Any thoughts or suggestions is greatly appreciated, and Happy New Year to everyone.  :cheers:


Pictures were too large and had to be added. :banghead:
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015 - 05:09:10 AM by AARTA340 »




Offline soundcontrol

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2015 - 07:11:15 AM »
  :popcorn:
Following this, wanna learn.
/ Ken
Restoration thread: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=102525.0
topic=108917.new#new

Offline mofish

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2016 - 12:11:31 AM »
Hi Grant, I'm wanting to follow and learn from this too. Need to do my car too. Hopefully somebody that knows what they are doing will give some tips   :22yikes:

Offline 1 Wild R/T

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2016 - 03:01:04 AM »

I will most likely attempt most of the work while it is sitting on the table I tossed together over the Christmas weekend. It was sitting on a rotisserie and as we all know, that would not work.


My suggestion if you want use a table, build a bigger one...  A couple 15' .120 wall 4x4 tubes with risers to support the rails at factory points....

 It should support all four frame rails close to each end of each rail... A total of eight support points.... And the info for setting the elevations & offsets can be found in a factory frame diagram.....

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Offline Bullitt-

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2016 - 09:33:38 AM »
After watching the guys making custom formed parts on the tube I'd suggest making some templates of the good sides profile you have now out of heavy cardboard or similar.
Several every few inches on the outside both vertical & horizontal so your not guessing when locating the new panels going back on.    :2cents:
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
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Offline rhamson

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2016 - 10:00:40 AM »
I work from the inside out if I can. Repair or replace one panel at a time and screw the panel in place. The rear is only important where it fits to the glass and the deck lid. You will also have to take care where the valance fits as it is hard to move the quarter panels afterwards. So screw everything together with as many screws as you need to isolate the panel. Once everything fits I would then begin welding them in one at a time also filling in the screw holes. Also take measurements where you can of existing and corresponding metal that is to be removed and line it up according to those measurements. One other thing I would do if I was replacing the quarter panel is to leave the door on and make sure the gap is good prior to removing the old quarter panel. Then when you replace the quarter panel you will have a good idea where it must be aligned.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016 - 10:07:52 AM by rhamson »

Offline rhamson

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2016 - 12:52:25 PM »
My suggestion if you want use a table, build a bigger one...  A couple 15' .120 wall 4x4 tubes with risers to support the rails at factory points....

 It should support all four frame rails close to each end of each rail... A total of eight support points.... And the info for setting the elevations & offsets can be found in a factory frame diagram.....
  :iagree:

Offline 70chall440

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2016 - 01:40:57 PM »
I have done quarters, trunk floor and some passenger floor work on my Cuda; I did not use a table of any kind and at the risk of people "poo poo'ing" me on this, I do not believe you need one unless you are going full AMD level repair (where you remove everything before you install anything). IMO, I did the interior floor first, cutting out the bad and replacing it. Then moved on to the trunk floor (2 pc floor). I would say here that I would not weld in the trunk extensions until you get the quarters in place. If you are doing wheel houses, do them when you are doing the quarters as you will have the best access. If the trunk floor is in place (as in welded), the risk of things moving is minimized.

Clecos and cleco clamps as well as a lot of welding clamps (small, medium and large) are your friends in this. Clecos are awesome; buy a lot and play with them before you go to use them (understand what size hole to drill for the Cleco to work the best).
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Offline 1 Wild R/T

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2016 - 02:27:17 PM »
I have done quarters, trunk floor and some passenger floor work on my Cuda; I did not use a table of any kind and at the risk of people "poo poo'ing" me on this, I do not believe you need one unless you are going full AMD level repair (where you remove everything before you install anything). IMO, I did the interior floor first, cutting out the bad and replacing it. Then moved on to the trunk floor (2 pc floor). I would say here that I would not weld in the trunk extensions until you get the quarters in place. If you are doing wheel houses, do them when you are doing the quarters as you will have the best access. If the trunk floor is in place (as in welded), the risk of things moving is minimized.

Clecos and cleco clamps as well as a lot of welding clamps (small, medium and large) are your friends in this. Clecos are awesome; buy a lot and play with them before you go to use them (understand what size hole to drill for the Cleco to work the best).

If not supporting the car works for you go for it... I've seen to many cars that sat wrong, that had the suspension shimmed to try & make the car sit level etc... Getting the car square straight & true is the key to building the best car you car... If everything thats hidden is right the parts that show fit right without excuses... And if your serious about handling a square platform makes getting the suspension & steering to work right is easier... Doing the hard work up front pays dividends on the backside...

First thing I generally do is pay a bodyshop to hang tram gauges & see if things are where they need to be.. If not I pay to make it right... Then I bring the car to my shop & support it properly...

FWIW I don't use a table, I use eight jack stands... I use shims between the jack stand & the body to fine tune elevations...
JS27N0B 70 Challenger R/T Convertible  FJ5 Sublime, Show Poodle w/90,000 miles since resto
WS27L8G 68 Coronet R/T Convertible  PP1 Bright Red, Project
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Offline jimynick

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2016 - 11:08:44 PM »
I've done all this, but it's past my beddy-bye time and I'll respond tomorrow- yawn. Night!

Offline mofish

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2016 - 11:29:50 PM »
 :popcorn:

Offline jimynick

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2016 - 10:58:33 PM »
Ok Ok. Leave the doors on the car. They're your gauge. When I did mine, I changed the outer 1/4's, inr and otr whlhses, trunk floor and extensions. Lift it under the suspension to your work height and, as mentioned, you can use stands and shims (2x4' etc. ) to support, at their own heights, the rear rails. I removed the rear body panel, 1/4's and whlhses which allowed me to remove the trunk floor easier. Check, clean and/or recondition your frame rails while the floor is out- you'll never have a better chance to make the rails right again. I pre-welded th gas tank braces to the new floor before installing it. Toss the floor in and put a couple of Clecos in using an 1/8" bit, to hold it in it's old position. The AMD whlhses where vicegripped together and set in, then the extensions where again clamped in what looked to be their place and the 1/4's were tossed on. Now comes the fun part- using the doors, fit your 1/4's so that your door/qtr gap is even and the width you want. Clamp/Cleco them temporarily, then try to fit the whlhses so that the outer matches up with the 1/4 skin; after that try to fit the inr whlhse to the outer while getting a decent fit to the trunk floor. Vicegrips are your friend here and I have over a dozen pair and used them all at one time or another. Then, set the lwr rear body panel on the trunk floor and hang your deck lid. Use the deck lid as a gauge to help set the position of the 1/4's and try for an even, symmetrical gap. You now have all the players on the board and your goal is to move, adjust and/or modify them so that they all play together nicely. DON'T weld anything in until you're getting where you need to go fit-wise. You can re-adjust Clecos and clamps as much as req'd to try to get that elusive fit. Be patient- if it doesn't fit- why doesn't it fit and what needs to be done to MAKE it fit. It's a big job and intimidating for a journeyman let alone a novice. You'll never get it perfect- they weren't built that way from the get-go, but you can make it better than it likely came out of the factory as. Good luck and I hope this helped, even a wee bit.  :cheers:

Offline TelisSE440

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2016 - 01:09:32 PM »
Wanna learn too. That's nice info.

Offline AARTA340

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2016 - 12:47:53 AM »
Kind of a long comment, but want to get all the info up to date. I really want to thank all that have taken the time to check out my post and toss out some ideas. I have been prepping for some time to start this project and finally committed to it around the Christmas holidays. I built a welding table that is about 50 x 56 inches. I built it on a platform and the surface is absolutely square and perpendicular with the heavy 10 inch iron castor wheels. I would have liked it just a tad lower, but had to keep in mind of a good height for a welding table when the body is finished, so it is about 35 inches high.  I think the table is heavier than the body sitting on it. It has 1/2 inch steel plate for the top. I thought about putting the car on my lift, but knew it was going to be a long term project so opted for the table with the easy ability to push it out of the way when waiting on parts/money or whatever pops up. After the body was placed on the table, I checked for deflection on the front and rear and there was not any. After the trunk and part of the quarters were removed, still nothing as far as sag. I do have some screw jacks that can be used if there is any sag, but all is looking good at this point. For the start, I am only dealing with the car’s rear door pillars back.

As said in my original post, it will be getting a new trunk floor, trunk extensions, both rear quarters, dutchman panel, trunk gutters, rear tail panel. The wheel housings are quite solid, but one or two of the four will need a small patch. I was going to reuse the rear cross member frame, but after I tore the back apart it was decided to use a new AMD one.
I have been checking around for info and found where a restorer had said the sides of the cars from the door pillar back to the rear of the car vary as much as 1/2 inch from side to side. Others have also said this, but I could not confirm on this build as the right side was quite mangled. I did make a measurement of the good side and will attempt to make both sides equal. Another told me to be sure to measure the trunk re-enforcement braces before complete removal. He had seen where someone had installed a new trunk and welded them back in the wrong spot, which makes it impossible to mount the fuel tank correctly. Trunk opening heights, widths and lengths were also saved for rebuilding the trunk.

After reading the thread about the door lines not matching up with the quarters with the AMD door panels really got me concerned and jimynick supported my concern with his recommendations on having the doors on for matching the body lines with the quarters. I had marked the center of the body lines on the door pillars, but after much thought, I will be putting the doors on for the metal install. This will get me the best available body line up and the best door gap possible.

The floor actually came out better/easier than I had thought, as I left the wheel housings in. The floor has been set in and actually fits quite nice. I still have to remove both quarters, but at least the project has started. I will start a thread over in the members project folder. As this will be a long term project, there will be times with little or no activity, but I will add progress as it happens.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016 - 12:53:24 AM by AARTA340 »

Offline mofish

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Re: Help and suggestions on metal replacement
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2016 - 10:27:31 AM »
That's awesome Grant. Congrats on getting the project started. I wish I lived closer so I could pop in and learn...and lend a hand!   :woo: