Author Topic: Corrosion  (Read 10562 times)

Offline cudabob496

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2016 - 08:54:37 PM »
I'm gonna put a little metal cylinder, containing a zinc anode,
on the metal discharge coming off the radiator fill cap, and going
to the coolant recovery bottle.  Will save me welding a bung.

If someone gets rich off this idea, remember me.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016 - 04:47:27 PM by cudabob496 »
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000




Offline Topcat

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2016 - 11:18:42 PM »
So CudaBob,

Weren't you telling me the great wonders of the Aluminum Radiator over a Copper & Brass a year ago?

I can name at least a dozen cars I know with Copper & Brass radiators and they're all maintenance free.
Including my restored one.
 
No zinc anodes or any additives required!

Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline cudabob496

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2016 - 03:22:42 PM »
There are so many great wonders, I don't have time to list them all.

But I will install a $5 zinc, to have 20 degree better cooling.

And don't forget there are aluminum water pumps and heads to protect.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016 - 03:55:22 PM by cudabob496 »
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline Topcat

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2016 - 01:12:34 AM »
I don't feel like getting into a pissing match; but your theory of 20 degrees cooler is Hogwash.

I'm running a cast iron water pump housing with a cast iron water pump with a Copper brass OEM re built radiator.

I can't get the temp needle to go 1/4 up way on a Hemi.
And that's even when it get's over 80 degrees outside.
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline cudabob496

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2016 - 02:57:57 AM »
I don't feel like getting into a pissing match; but your theory of 20 degrees cooler is Hogwash.

I'm running a cast iron water pump housing with a cast iron water pump with a Copper brass OEM re built radiator.

I can't get the temp needle to go 1/4 up way on a Hemi.
And that's even when it get's over 80 degrees outside.

On 95+ degree days, I would run around 210+.  When I put in an aluminum radiator, I ran
near 190.

I went out yesterday when it was sunny and 55. I hit stoplights every 1/2 mile,
and got on the car quite a bit. Its a 496 engine.  I never had to turn on my electric fan.  The hood is vented, so
I get good airflow through the radiator. With no fan on, I was seeing around 205 at the stop lights (if it was a long light).
If I turned on the dinky fan, it would hold temps under 200. Obviously if I just sat there at the light for a long time,
the temp will creep up, if I dont turn on the fan.

If you want to see how good your copper-brass radiator is, remove your fan, and drive around a little.

Hey, I'm glad you like your copper-brass radiator.  I live where 100 degrees is common, so I would never
give up my aluminum radiator.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2016 - 03:05:04 AM by cudabob496 »
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline cudabob496

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2016 - 03:02:54 AM »
One of many articles on the Net - 20% to 30% more efficient!

Why Chose an All Aluminum Radiator?

All-Aluminum radiators are fast becoming the new wave in radiator replacement. 100% Aluminum construction has eliminated the problems associated with plastic tanks and epoxy bonding to the radiator core. The auto industry has migrated from the old standard copper/brass to create significantly lighter and more efficient aluminum core cooling systems. Our All-Aluminum radiators take it one step further. Solid hand welded construction, high-flow tubes, increased fin count and overall higher efficiency ratings.

The obvious advantage of an aluminum radiator versus a copper/brass version has a lot to do with weight savings, but there are actual cooling benefits as well. Even though traditional brass and copper materials are better conductors than aluminum, the extra strength of the aluminum allows for larger tubes with more surface area. Even an aluminum radiator with fewer tubes than its traditional counterpart can potentially offer improved cooling, as the larger tubes make more efficient use of available core space.

Aluminum is much stronger, allowing the use of considerably wider tubes. Wider tubes allow more direct contact between the fins and the tube, increasing the radiator's capacity to dissipate heat away from the engine.

An aluminum radiator built with 1" wide tubes with a .016" tube wall turned out to be approximately 60% lighter than the same copper brass radiator. The 1" tube increased direct tube-to-fin contact and cooling capacity by roughly 25%. Therefore, a 2 row aluminum radiator with 1" tubes is equivalent to a 5 row copper brass radiator with 1/2" tubes.

Today all vehicle manufacturers incorporate aluminum radiators with wide tubes in their designs. GM, for instance, offers an aluminum radiator with 1-1/4" tubes. Mercedes Benz uses 1-1/2" tubes.

Copper is a good heat conductor, but solder required to bond the tubes to fin creates an insulation point that prevents some heat transfer. Aluminum tubes are welded rather than soldered to the aluminum tanks, providing a more efficient conductor for cooling efficiency.

Most aluminum radiators are manufactured with plastic tanks. To take it one step further, some are manufactured with aluminum tanks. The advantage of the aluminum tanks over plastic is the obvious added strength and the elimination of the insulating epoxies between the core and tank as well as the added heat dissipation properties of the aluminum tanks themselves.

In conclusion, an all aluminum radiator will have an overall efficiency rating 20-30% higher than the traditional copper/brass version with the same core thickness, regardless of the number of rows. Some of the increase in efficiency is directly attributable to the use of aluminum tanks in place of the plastic tanks in the majority of modern radiators.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016 - 03:18:54 AM by cudabob496 »
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline brads70

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2016 - 11:43:44 AM »
I don't feel like getting into a pissing match; but your theory of 20 degrees cooler is Hogwash.

I'm running a cast iron water pump housing with a cast iron water pump with a Copper brass OEM re built radiator.

I can't get the temp needle to go 1/4 up way on a Hemi.
And that's even when it get's over 80 degrees outside.

My buddy also has a Hemi. And has the same results as you. I suspect it has to do with cylinder wall thickness as well as HP. I know I could run circles around his HP wise. The Hemi my buddy has is blessed with very thick cylinder walls.  Higher HP makes heat.  In my case I'm wondering if my heating issues have something to do with the aftermarket aluminum water pump housing design. I've read the post over on Dodge Charger.com about it. I've ordered gaskets and have a stock cast iron housing and am planning on machining the passage ways to look like the stock cast iron housing to see if that helps. 
I'd think to compare apples to apples you would need to try the different rads on the same engine to make a true comparison
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline YellowThumper

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2016 - 01:49:43 PM »
How about both can be correct AND both ways incorrect.
Agree to disagree...

Copper has a higher thermal conductivity, and therefore is superior to aluminum in processor cooling.

Copper is better at conducting heat than aluminum, but aluminum is able to radiate the heat into the air better than copper because of its lower density.

That said, older cooling systems optimized overall cooling by matching flow for thermal conductivity vs dissipation. IE the old mith that removing thermostat will allow better flow for cooling. If fluid passes thru too fast it doesn't have time to "release" the heat thus system becomes ineffective.

With the more rapid dissipation of heat with the aluminum, one can surmise more flow would be benificial. Coolant would not absorb and release as much heat per unit of contact but would benifit from more physical contact by virtue of flow. More units of fluid touching the aluminum that absorbs less but rapidly dissipates temperature could effectively cool more.

Bottom line is optimize your system for intended purpose. Stick with a copper core for a vehicle that spends most of its life sitting. Also one that doesn't have any aluminum heads or manifold.
Removing the warning labels one at a time.
Nature will take care of the rest.

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2016 - 02:31:50 PM »
Cannot stand it :D

Aluminum overcomes whatever deficiency it may have with regard to heat transfer by presenting more surface area to the air stream if the tube is rectangular in shape instead of being oval as in a copper/brass tube.  In an oval tube, the air tends to touch the high points of the tube instead of flowing across the flat surface as it does with rectangular tubes.  In a cross flow radiator where the tubes are 1-1.25" wide, this advantage is large.

The old "Myth" is that higher velocity in a closed loop cooling system will cause less heat to be removed because it is not in the radiator long enuf.

The new "fact" is that in a closed loop system, the faster the flow, the quicker it will return for another pass so there is no net difference in heat transfer.  The benefit of a high volume thermostat is that it creates more turbulence in the tube which exposes more of the fluid to contact with the tube thus causing more heat to be transferred to the air stream.

The purpose of the thermostat is two fold.  One, it allows quicker warm up which is good.

Second, it causes a build up of pressure in the block (up to 60 psi or so) which raises the boiling point substantially within the block and heads.  This reduces the likelihood of localized boiling within the engine and reduces the potential for detonation due to hot spots.

In this case, the thermostat is a restrictor which is very beneficial...particularly when combined with a high volume water pump.

Now, if no thermostat or restrictor is used, the engine may overheat-not from fast flow but from the lack of pressure in the engine which allows localized boiling. 

Offline cudabob496

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2016 - 03:15:19 PM »
Seems zinc anodes would protect a copper-brass radiator from
corrosion as well?
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline YellowThumper

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2016 - 03:34:24 PM »
Cannot stand it :D

Aluminum overcomes whatever deficiency it may have with regard to heat transfer by presenting more surface area to the air stream if the tube is rectangular in shape instead of being oval as in a copper/brass tube.  In an oval tube, the air tends to touch the high points of the tube instead of flowing

--- center portion removed to reduce quote---

from fast flow but from the lack of pressure in the engine which allows localized boiling.

Different verbiage and a few more details but same jist I was stating...
Removing the warning labels one at a time.
Nature will take care of the rest.

Offline 734406pk

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2016 - 12:00:57 AM »
Seems zinc anodes would protect a copper-brass radiator from
corrosion as well?

Yes it would.
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline cudabob496

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2016 - 03:53:44 AM »
I'm gonna put a little metal cylinder, containing a zinc anode,
on the metal discharge coming off the radiator fill cap, and going
to the coolant recovery bottle.  Will save me welding a bung.

If someone gets rich off this idea, remember me.

OK, looks a little dorky, and will paint it black, but added a 3 inch brass pipe,
going to the recovery bottle, and put a chunk of zinc in the pipe.  At least don't have
to weld a bung into radiator. This may or may not help radiator corrosion, since there is already
a zinc in the water pump, and all the aluminum on the engine is connected by water
anyway. But, it can't hurt.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline 734406pk

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2016 - 11:53:08 PM »
Personally, i would be concerned with the bending moment at the pressure cap overflow connection, but you decide. Question:: is there a drain plug or valve that you can install a zinc pencil? I would feel better with that set up.
1973 Challenger 440 6 pack auto 3.91 rear
2012 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 6.7 Cummins Fleece EFI Live
1973 Challenger 318 2bbl auto 2.73 rear 22.5 mpg RIP
1970 Challenger TA 340 4bbl auto-Sold and sad
1999 Dodge Ram 3500 dually 5.9 Cummins Fleece tuned VGT-sold
1995 Kawasaki ZX1100E & still alive

Offline cudabob496

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Re: Corrosion
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2016 - 01:52:58 AM »
Personally, i would be concerned with the bending moment at the pressure cap overflow connection, but you decide. Question:: is there a drain plug or valve that you can install a zinc pencil? I would feel better with that set up.

I had/have the same concern.  I'll put a little upward pressure on the hose below
the fitting, so that there is minimal weight at the attachment. But the threaded
fitting on the radiator cap seems pretty robust. If it was dangling off a vibrating
engine, then would definitely be a concern. Unfortunately, no drain plug.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000