Author Topic: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...  (Read 20519 times)

Offline anlauto

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2016 - 01:36:55 PM »
  Now buying and selling to make a profit is another topic entirely. And a little slimy.

This part I really don't understand ?

This WORLD was built on buying and selling to make a profit, what's wrong with doing that with muscle cars ?

I think if you find a great deal on a car, you purchase it and both parties are happy, then you flip it for a huge profit and both new parties are still happy.....What's wrong with that ? :dunno:
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Offline rhamson

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2016 - 02:20:48 PM »
Nothing is wrong with flipping cars if you can do it and make a profit from it. I made some good money in used cars. They were a lot newer and the auctions were great for finding some great deals. The collector car market is a lot more specialized and the more original it is the more profit there is in it. The two are night and day when you compare them. In regular used cars the cars are sold on the options and price and the collector cars are sold on originality and market share. The market share is wide open as thousands are still available. In collector cars the market is only as open as the few that are still around. It gets slimy when the selling begins and you have a fish who wants something more than its worth. That is where you make your money.

Offline 70chall440

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2016 - 01:01:41 PM »
I don't think it is "slimy" at all, however we all know that there are a number of unscrupulous people out there who will try and make a living off of duping the unsuspecting public. This is especially true with specialty cars whether it is muscle cars, vettes, exotics, whatever. The exists because people are lazy and do not want to do their own research to understand true value, or worse yet buy emotionally. Generally a seller is going to try and make a case why his vehicle is worth what he/she is asking and the more gullible and uninformed the buyer is the better. This is where any of those craigslist adds clearly illuminate either a seller who doesn't know what they are doing and thinks their vehicle is worth X amount because of auctions and TV or a seller who knows exactly what he is doing and paints a pretty picture of rarity and value that some "fish" will bite on.

Therefore the buying an flipping scenario comes with a reputation (just like used car salesmen). The rep probably isn't applicable as much any longer but it is still prevalent. If you are buying Mopar muscle and making it road worthy and putting the back on the road, good on you. While I admire the effort I cannot believe it is overly profitable unless you are very specialized and highly talented. That said, if you are buying cars in yards, barns, etc and flipping them with reasonable prices, you are doing the hobby a favor.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline BIGSHCLUNK

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2016 - 01:21:28 PM »
Used car salesmen reputations aside..... the world spins on buying and selling. Whether it be an item or a service. Some of us are more directly in line with this than others. I buy wrecks and sell parts, Brad repairs lawn /snow equpt, ect ect. Granted some are firefighters, military ect... BUT EVERYTHING else is buying and selling in one way or another. Some of us are just more on the front line of things rather than the office or shop floor.....  :bigsmile: 
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Offline 1 Wild R/T

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2016 - 01:41:46 PM »
If you do something to add value to deserve a profit, on the other hand I know of a certain club president of a nearby Mopar club who was approached by the widow of a Mopar owner & asked about selling his prized possession... Now this man prized his toy & knew it had considerable value which when he passed could have made the widow enough money to improve her last years.... Well the club president bought the car from her for about a tenth of it's value.... So yeah there are slimy dealings out there.... I know a few people who no longer belong to the club because of the deal but at the end of the day he still has the car & the widow still got ripped off by someone she mistakenly trusted...
JS27N0B 70 Challenger R/T Convertible  FJ5 Sublime, Show Poodle w/90,000 miles since resto
WS27L8G 68 Coronet R/T Convertible  PP1 Bright Red, Project
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Offline 70chall440

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2016 - 07:28:56 PM »
If you do something to add value to deserve a profit, on the other hand I know of a certain club president of a nearby Mopar club who was approached by the widow of a Mopar owner & asked about selling his prized possession... Now this man prized his toy & knew it had considerable value which when he passed could have made the widow enough money to improve her last years.... Well the club president bought the car from her for about a tenth of it's value.... So yeah there are slimy dealings out there.... I know a few people who no longer belong to the club because of the deal but at the end of the day he still has the car & the widow still got ripped off by someone she mistakenly trusted...

Special place in hell for that guy..
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline roadman5312

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2016 - 07:38:25 PM »
Special place in hell for that guy..

                                        :iagree:   

Offline Beekeeper

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2016 - 08:27:45 PM »
As much as I enjoy driving these cars, I realized a while back that my real hobby is working on them and I enjoy that. I think it's perfectly healthy in our car hobby to have people who buy, fix me up and flip. After all, some people don't how to work on them, may not care to, or simply not have time. I'm happy to sell those folks something and we both make out. The extra money pays for my hobby.

Those unscrupulous people turn my stomach as well. Every 'barn find' story I ever hear end with someone paying pennies on the dollar and it kind of offends me. I made sure my wife knows what my stuff is worth so some jerk doesn't do that to her.

Offline anlauto

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2016 - 10:07:59 PM »
Every 'barn find' story I ever hear end with someone paying pennies on the dollar and it kind of offends me.


I think thoughts like this stem from pure jealousy :2cents:

If I came across a HemiCuda in a barn and the owner, or the owners widow, or child said "I'd be happy to get a couple of grand for it, and get it out of my sight"
Not many people would say "Oh no...it's worth ten times that amount" :screwy:

Back around 2000 I bought a loaded V code 1971 Charger R/T project car from a long time friend of mine...I took one look at the car and parts and was very happy to give him his asking price of $18500.00.

Months later, I met the guy that he bought it from while looking for the Dana rear end. We got talking and I learned that my friend paid $8500....for the car maybe a year before. :22yikes:

While tracking down previous owners, I found the guy who sold it for only $4500 to buddy with the Dana 60.....

Moral of the story.....at the time of sale...both the seller and the buyers were happy...... :drunk:

That's the way the world works.....If I stumble on a really good deal, why not scoop it up for the quick flip....what's the harm ?

I went on to restore that Charger and sold it for about $15K profit....back in the hey day ! http://www.alangallantautomotiverestoration.com/PAST-RESTO-18.html
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Offline Beekeeper

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2016 - 11:10:53 PM »
Might seem like jealousy but trust me it's not. I find great deals on all sorts of things. No need to trick or deceive or hide information.

The type of deal I was referring to is the door knock of a seller who is not advertising. If someone advertised a $20k car for $12k I'd buy it but that's a bit different than knocking on someone's door and convincing him that old car in the backyard is only worth $100.

I have bought guns, cars, and other things from people who don't know what they have and I never pretend what they have isn't valuable. I've had people ask me what I think somethings worth and I give them honest answers. If the honest answer is out of my price range, I still answer honestly and then tell them the most I'd be willing to pay for it. Surprisingly, if you're not crazy low on your offer, they often accept just because it's convenient or maybe they appreciate the honesty.

Two months ago, a neighbor mentioned wanting to sell a handgun I've been wanting for years. It's old and collectible and hard to find. He asked me what it was worth and I told him $2000. I could have said $500 and he would have believed me. It was out of my price range and he sold it. Yes I lost out by being honest but I figure it's Karma. It works for me. I'll never be the guy bragging about buying a $100k car for $5k but I can live with that.

Offline 70chall440

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2016 - 11:38:14 PM »
I would agree that if after a deal both the seller and buyer are happy, so be it. However if the buyer is deceiving the seller AND there is a question of integrity then I have an issue. Point is that today, everyone can easily find out what something is worth, however if you happen upon that older person who has not clue what a car s worth and isn't internet savvy, then as far as I am concerned it is up to the buyer's conscience on what to do. You could easily argue that any seller of anything should know what they have and price the product/item accordingly, however there are people who don't know, understand, etc. All this said, it takes a lot of balls to inform someone that they are asking too little for something, especially when it is something rare or exceptionally valuable.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline rhamson

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #71 on: April 11, 2016 - 07:18:08 AM »
I don't think it is "slimy" at all, however we all know that there are a number of unscrupulous people out there who will try and make a living off of duping the unsuspecting public. This is especially true with specialty cars whether it is muscle cars, vettes, exotics, whatever. The exists because people are lazy and do not want to do their own research to understand true value, or worse yet buy emotionally. Generally a seller is going to try and make a case why his vehicle is worth what he/she is asking and the more gullible and uninformed the buyer is the better. This is where any of those craigslist adds clearly illuminate either a seller who doesn't know what they are doing and thinks their vehicle is worth X amount because of auctions and TV or a seller who knows exactly what he is doing and paints a pretty picture of rarity and value that some "fish" will bite on.

Therefore the buying an flipping scenario comes with a reputation (just like used car salesmen). The rep probably isn't applicable as much any longer but it is still prevalent. If you are buying Mopar muscle and making it road worthy and putting the back on the road, good on you. While I admire the effort I cannot believe it is overly profitable unless you are very specialized and highly talented. That said, if you are buying cars in yards, barns, etc and flipping them with reasonable prices, you are doing the hobby a favor.
Wow did I open a hornet's nest with this. You are for the most part right because unless you are very good at assessing and fixing an old muscle car you can lose your shirt at it through flipping. But how many times do you see and ad stating a numbers matching project that has a missing engine, trans and fender tag but claiming it is a rare find. So the rotted out a$$ end of it needing replaced and door skins and A pillar are just minor fixes compared to its value. On top of that they want an astronomical amount of money for its rarity? There are so many unscrupulous people out there like that and that is why we have people like Galen Govier who have to verify these things if you have the time. It is just used cars when it comes down to it and they can sometimes be a winning proposition but too often a loser for the less informed.

Offline dfrazz

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2016 - 09:12:37 AM »
that is why we have people like Galen Govier who have to verify these things if you have the time.

Dude, you are just digging the hole deeper.....

Offline Beekeeper

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #73 on: April 11, 2016 - 09:33:29 AM »
Ok, I'll try and bring it back to the original subject which is actually a pretty interesting topic...haha

Regarding Aniautos first Demon estimate, quality parts and quality work gets expensive. This might sound a bit harsh but I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for the guy. He's owned it for many decades and in all likelihood the deterioration occurred while it was sitting on his property. He has a great emotional attachment to the car yet not so great that he would consider putting it in the garage or preserving it in some way. There are lots of folks like him who hold onto pretty cool cars with an unrealistic dream of someday getting them back on the road. And that part is okay but I just can't understand why they are left outside melting in the ground and if someone makes a fair offer to buy, it's flatly refused. I admire the mans taste in cars and his vision to see it restored but his failure to plan may have ruined the chance on this car.

Offline rUNCHARGER

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Re: Unfortunate cost of Restoration...
« Reply #74 on: April 11, 2016 - 10:26:25 AM »
You're right Beekeeper. If the fellow truly loved the car he should have kept it up as time passed. I have always felt that way. I have probably restored a car per year over the last 40 years and it takes time and money. However just to keep one car in good shape over the last 30 or so years would actually not take that much effort or time overall per year. I have a friend who owns a 75 Trans Am he bought new and it still looks new, overall it just takes careful care (his has it's original shining black paint) and minimal mechanical maintenance.

Sheldon