Author Topic: locking out the distributor  (Read 6883 times)

Offline 70chall440

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2016 - 02:28:50 PM »
Very interesting thread.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6 EFI, 73 Cuda 416-6 EFI
05 Hemi Durango, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 Ram 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger 6 spd RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR (under const)
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)




Offline crash340

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2016 - 03:37:23 PM »
As far as I'm aware, we pretty much all just back the screw out inside the VA body and block the vacum line off at the carb so the VA doent work at all, from there just adjust the distributor to be at around 35* at 3000 rpm and done, thats what I have done and all works fine, just have to check for pinging.

CP, this is correct right?
Greg

73 Cuda
Brisbane, Australia

Offline BFM_Cuda

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2016 - 06:42:52 PM »
Remember that the screw adjustment on the vacuum advance DOES NOT control the amount of vacuum advance, only the AMOUNT OF VACUUM needed to pull the advance arm... The length of the slot in the vacuum arm controls the amount (shown in attached photo). This one is 8.5 degrees vacuum at dizzy (17 degrees advance at crank).

Yeah, so use the allen screw to adjust when the vacuum advance starts to work. If you are getting some detonation when you add throttle at a cruising speed, turn out the allen screw to decrease the amount of vacuum advance and recheck. This assumes you have your mechanical timing set well and don't have any detonation with your mechanical timing only (no vacuum advance input).

You also should verify you have zero vacuum to the distributor when at idle.

Offline john h

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2016 - 10:01:04 PM »
unfortunately it's raining tonight so it's only garage time...   capped the vacuum advance and the port. warmed up the car and checked the total.  it's 37* at 2500 RPM no stumble at any RPM up to 3000.   did not go much over that wile sitting.  can someone explain to me how to limit the dist to 34*?   I will run no advance.  My plan is to expedite the EFI conversion.  I will then lock out the dist. with the plate from FBO and use the EFI to run the timing.  I was also thinking could I set my initial timing to 0* or even -2 and then run the vacuum advance but hook it up to constant vacuum.  then I would be getting 12-14* Initial and then total of around 41-43 total????
John
73 Cuda
360 Crate motor
FiTech Fuel injection
727 Trans (wishing it had Over Drive)

Offline 73_Cuda_4_Me

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2016 - 10:21:10 PM »
Sorry if this appears as a hi-jack of the thread... not meant to be!

Just out of curiosity, are you running stock cam, or have you upped it? If the cam isn't stock, spec timing won't apply... you have to set initial to what the cam wants (best vacuum), then retard 1 or 2 degrees from there. That is the starting point... If mechanical 34 degrees advance puts you way over final of 34-36 all in, you need to limit it by adding a limiter plate or welding slots.

My cam likes 18 initial, and I also have 34 deg of mechanical, so I made a plate limiting it to 18 mechanical. I fashioned it off the FBO plate, but there is a minor flaw in that design.. it limits the outer throw of the weights, and I've found that it's better to shorten the slots on the inside of the slots. You still limit the total travel for the advance, but it gets you out of the 'variable timing' effect of running right on the edge of start of advance at idle speed needed for larger cams... You just adjust dizzy initial to correct the new 'start' point by turning dizzy slightly in retard direction.

My mechanical was bumping around 5 to 7 degrees at idle of 800. Couldn't get a solid idle setting to stick from day to day.

By moving the inner portion of the slot, you add a small bit of tension to the weight springs, shifting the centrifugal starting point to slightly higher RPM. You want rock solid timing at whatever idle speed you need, otherwise you will be chasing your tail trying to keep a steady idle speed... any temperature or humidity changes will affect it on a daily basis. I found 30 RPM variation made a major change in advance at idle. If you can get idle down to 600 or so, watch timing, then slowly raise the RPM... when it starts shifting off a rock solid reading, that is the RPM break point for centrifugal advance.

Mine starts at 700, so I have to raise it to start around 900 or so (just above the idle the cam likes). I have not been able to find a spring set that lets me start at 950 and get a good curve to max out at 3200... so I plan on running STOCK spring set, just changing the initial starting point of the curve. That way I get good rock solid timing at idle, and also get the exponential increase as the elongated spring kicks in at higher RPM (the elongated hole spring is stiffer, so advances curve slower per RPM than the other one). This helps hold advance back mid-throttle, and helps prevent pinging in my application.

I know I could always buy a new dizzy with variable start/end points electronically, but the mechanic in me (and my wallet) say experiment!

I'm making a plate with shorter slots at inside, and taking pics to share... will do a write up for it with results when I get everything back together.
1973 Plymouth Cuda BS23H3B567783

R11 V6X EN2
M21 M25 M31 M88 N41 N42
V1X U B41 C56 G37 J54
JY9 A6X9 0 703 501616
E55 D34 BS23 H3B 567783

Offline 73_Cuda_4_Me

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2016 - 10:50:31 PM »
Also, my idle RPM / Mechanical advance issues were magnified by the 100-200 RPM drop when Auto tranny was put in Drive... I have been driving on the edge fighting correct idle/mechanical advance since I rebuilt engine last winter. Going to make this year's cruising a little easier and less frustrating!
1973 Plymouth Cuda BS23H3B567783

R11 V6X EN2
M21 M25 M31 M88 N41 N42
V1X U B41 C56 G37 J54
JY9 A6X9 0 703 501616
E55 D34 BS23 H3B 567783

Offline BFM_Cuda

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2016 - 08:02:39 AM »
  can someone explain to me how to limit the dist to 34*?   I will run no advance.  My plan is to expedite the EFI conversion.  I will then lock out the dist. with the plate from FBO and use the EFI to run the timing.  I was also thinking could I set my initial timing to 0* or even -2 and then run the vacuum advance but hook it up to constant vacuum.  then I would be getting 12-14* Initial and then total of around 41-43 total????

If you plan to not use the vacuum advance, simply set your timing to 34 degrees at 2500 rpm. It will not go any higher at any rpm. If you set it there but want a different idle timing number, you would need to modify the mechanical advance slot size.

You cannot hook up the vacuum advance to a constant source and set timing lower, as the vacuum levels would change under different engine loads and timing would fluctuate. Your only choice is to not hook it up and set the distributor timing without it. Which is the same thing you are asking to do.

Offline john h

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2016 - 01:23:41 PM »
THANKS EVERYONE. I have a lot to digest here.  I will do some experimenting.  Settign the timing at 34* total will net me only 7* advance at Idol.  I think it will stumble at only 7*  I do have a stock cam.  The weather has taken a turn for the worse again.  rain and snow here so it may be a few days before I can get back out and test drive.  The garage only nets you a little bit of trial and error.

Thanks
John
John
73 Cuda
360 Crate motor
FiTech Fuel injection
727 Trans (wishing it had Over Drive)

Offline CUDA JAS

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2016 - 04:40:31 PM »
THANKS EVERYONE. I have a lot to digest here.  I will do some experimenting.  Settign the timing at 34* total will net me only 7* advance at Idol.  I think it will stumble at only 7*  I do have a stock cam.  The weather has taken a turn for the worse again.  rain and snow here so it may be a few days before I can get back out and test drive.  The garage only nets you a little bit of trial and error.

Thanks
John

Agreed, you do not want the initial that low.

The trick is the plate mentioned above, or welding up the slots in the distributor. 

The idea being you need to limit the amount of advance so you can set the initial to where you want it and the total advance will only go to say 34*.

Jason
74 'cuda 360/727



Gearhead: car nut, automotive enthusiast, one who loves hot rods, muscle cars, hot trucks, burnin' rubber and neck snapping performance. 

Just call me a gearhead!

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2016 - 09:21:36 PM »
As far as I'm aware, we pretty much all just back the screw out inside the VA body and block the vacum line off at the carb so the VA doent work at all, from there just adjust the distributor to be at around 35* at 3000 rpm and done, thats what I have done and all works fine, just have to check for pinging.

CP, this is correct right?
Yes , installing a small ball brg in the Vacuum lines works too

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2016 - 09:25:38 PM »
unfortunately it's raining tonight so it's only garage time...   capped the vacuum advance and the port. warmed up the car and checked the total.  it's 37* at 2500 RPM no stumble at any RPM up to 3000.   did not go much over that wile sitting.  can someone explain to me how to limit the dist to 34*?   I will run no advance.  My plan is to expedite the EFI conversion.  I will then lock out the dist. with the plate from FBO and use the EFI to run the timing.  I was also thinking could I set my initial timing to 0* or even -2 and then run the vacuum advance but hook it up to constant vacuum.  then I would be getting 12-14* Initial and then total of around 41-43 total????
Why would uou do that ? if the EFI is controlling the timing , basically figure out where to lock the dist down & use the computer to map the advance from there , the computer can adjust the whole timing curve , having vacuum attached will mess with the computer as it will be changing as well as the computer

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline john h

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2016 - 01:03:40 PM »
Why would uou do that ? if the EFI is controlling the timing , basically figure out where to lock the dist down & use the computer to map the advance from there , the computer can adjust the whole timing curve , having vacuum attached will mess with the computer as it will be changing as well as the computer
[/quote I guess I was throwing out 2 thoughts at once.  I will let the EFI conversion run the timing.  the other thought was before actually switching to EFI. 
With EFI, i;m wondering if you only have 2 settings Initial and total.  Does the computer decide the curve or do you program that???  I will be using a self learning EFI map.  No laptop tuning for me.  The FITech unit looks like the way I will be going.
John
73 Cuda
360 Crate motor
FiTech Fuel injection
727 Trans (wishing it had Over Drive)

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: locking out the distributor
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2016 - 09:43:27 PM »
The sytem I was using allowed timing & fuel changes every 250 rpm all the way not sure whay self learning systems would do ?

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t